March 22, 2018 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1495948
What else must we do for Moshiach to arrive? How long must we wait. It seems that all the suffering we have endured within all the generations until the present hasnt been enough? Its funny how Purim is compared to the Holocaust and it is quite a similar circumstance, except that Purim was a happy story at the end and the Holocaust on the other hand was far from it. In the Holocaust, we were LITERALLY almost wiped out, and not only in Europe since the Germans had plans on taking over the whole world including the fact that they tried taking down the U.S as well. Throughout all the generations we had tremendous tzadikkim for our merit, and even many of them were brutally tortured and killed all for the name of Hashem. What else needs to be done on our part? And there is the concept of Moshiach arriving when bnei Yisrael will no longer be able to bear the hardships, the Holocaust is a great example of that. Surely the Yidden knew that Moshiach was about to be revealed. And in the end, we are “all”still waiting…March 22, 2018 7:11 am at 7:11 am #1496022ToiParticipant
Umm, isn’t it a bit thick to assume you can be privy at all to Hashem’s cheshbonos? We know that Hashem does everything for our good, and we want Moshiach to come in order to be migaleh kovod shomayim in the briyah, so sit tight and wait. People being murdered en masse doesn’t somehow ‘force’ Hashem’s hand c”v, and He’ll bring the geulah when the time is right. Your part is to do mitzvos, learn Troah, do massim tovim, and have emunah and bitachon. Ad kan.March 22, 2018 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1496029
As our last exile came because of שנאת חנם we have to do things that bring us together. All three תורה, עבודה and גמלות חסדים can help towards אחדות, unity. Torah, the Orech Chaim Hakodash in Parshas Tzaveh says that this last redemption will come in zechus of Moshe Rabbenu. If we learn Torah lishma to do everything, when learning, to arrive to the truth like Shimon Hamosini who was willing to give up practically his whole life’s work when he saw that he did not come to the truth when he was darshening את and stopped by את ה אלקיך תיראה. This should be done with a chavrusa where each question and answers thereby finding the truth. When it comes to avodah to daven with a minyan. We must recognize that we are individually not worthy to be listened to. Then, gemilos chasodim where we help physically and monetarily each other which brings us together.March 22, 2018 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1496030CSParticipant
“Your part is to do mitzvos, learn Troah, do massim tovim, and have emunah and bitachon. Ad kan”
And also yearn for it as we say I davening everyday and part of the yud gimmel ikrim.
How and why should you yearn for it if it’s Hashem’s business?
A) because Hahem Himself wants to see we care. And why should we care?
Because that’s the end goal its the point of all our Torah and mitzvos until now!
“Nisave HKBH liyos Lo Yisborach Dira Btachtonim.”
An example (not mine):
If a worker who makes iphones says he loves his job so much that he doesn’t want /need to get paid is a very praiseworthy worker.
But a worker who says he loves the motions of his part of the process and he doesn’t even care if it ends up as a working iPhone is quite dumb, because that’s the whole point of it
Someone saying he loves serving Hashem so much he doesn’t need rewards or gan Eden is like the former.
Someone who says he loves doing Torah and mitzvos and doesn’t care if that brings moshiach today or not is like the latter. And more only that but can risk being a kofer cvs. (As the Rambam says, “vchol mi sheeino.. Michake lvioso is not only kofer in Toras Moshe, but in all Neviim) Because ymos HaMoshiach are not just a reward they’re the whole point of Creation – Hashem wanted that this world which is the lowest and farthest from appreciating G-dliness, should get to appreciate it and live it up.
SoMarch 22, 2018 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1496033
Yes, we should yearn for Moshiach, but we do mitzvos because that’s the ratzon of Hashem.
If someone yearns for Moshiach, but does mitzvos because Hashem commanded, is he a kofer?March 22, 2018 9:56 am at 9:56 am #1496038
DY, He is not a kofer but it is preferable to do it because of לעשות נחת רוח ליוצרנו like a the Mesilos Yeshorim says that if we do mitzvos as a son, we anticipate what the father wants, but when we do it because we were commanded, we do it as a servant, so we do the minimum we must do.March 22, 2018 9:56 am at 9:56 am #1496069
If he doesn’t show that he cares for the will of Hashem and only does the minimum, I don’t know if that will bring Moshiach. As I said before that we must encourage others also to do mitzvos to bring unity, and that requires a complete devotion to the will of Hashem.March 22, 2018 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1496169
DY, He is not a kofer
Of course not, but it seemed to me that CS was saying he would be.
I’m not sure why you think the rest of what you wrote relates to what I said.March 22, 2018 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1496171
Or perhaps you didn’t mean to relate it to what I said?March 22, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1496179
Toi- so according to your approach, even if there was a world war and 2/3 of the world destroyed, what would make you think that Moshiach should arrive in that scenario?
Wouldn’t you at least expect it to happen?March 22, 2018 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1496227YossiiParticipant
After the holcost we got Isreal and that is the beginning of mashiach coming now we are just waiting for the full redemption which is right around the cornerMarch 22, 2018 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1496226
It is an argument whether yearning alone is good enough or we have to do deeds like doing things to bring unity and building the bais hamikdash together.March 22, 2018 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1496223
Because we suffered alot that means mashiach should come? If the suffering leads to teshuvah then that would make sense. But I think we’re a very long way from deserving mashisch. Some 90% of yiddin aren’t even shower Shabbos. And of those of us who are how many are real yerei shomaim, honest in business, baalei chessed etc. Still plenty of Sina going around…March 22, 2018 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1496271ToiParticipant
LC- I’m not sure who gave you the right to ‘expect’ anything. It’s not my ‘approach’ as if I made this one up and am trying to see if it’s viable- it’s our tafkid, tachlis, and avodah.
CS- I decided after the last thread not to answer any of your posts that pertain to Judaism ( though we can discuss potato kugel), seeing as you’ve been pre-programmed and brainwashed to a frightening extent. Just thought I should at least let you know why I’m not replying.
Laskern- Never did I imply that it’s unimportant to want to give nachas ruach to Hashem. My post was a simple rebuttal to the notion that it’s our job to sit and deliberate how to bring Moshiach. It’s not. We want him to come, we yearn for him to come, and we understand that doing what Hashem wants from us the best way make that happen, but in no way does that become our avodah. Spend time horeving on a R’ Akiva Eiger, not mulling ways to bring Moshiach. I once heard a mashal, I believe bisheim R’ Elya Svei, though it may have been someone else. Spoiler alert: it’s a mashal to describe the way traditional judaism feels about chabad, but I’m not bringing it here for that, but to make my point. A king once notified a simple village person that he intended to visit his home on a certain day and stay for a short while. Obviously, the average hovel was in no condition to receive the king, so the derfel yid (why not make him a jew) and his wife began preparing their humble home to receive his majesty. As they worked, it became evident they would not finish in time. For every repair they made, the kids, or chickens, or goats, or village drunk, managed to break something else, sending them into a never ending spiral of break-and-repair. When the day arrived, there was still much to be done, and no time to finish. While the children rushed outside to receive the king, the wife asked her husband, who had remained indoors, frantically trying to accomplish what he could, why he, too, didn’t go greet the monarch. The husband replied,” It’s for children to go singing and dancing in front of the king when he comes- I have to make sure His home ican be considered a dwelling place of the king.”
That’s what we’re doing- not figuring out eitzos to bring Moshiach, but readying this world to receive him.March 22, 2018 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1496558
JJ2020, The look at it like that. The importance is unity like the four children sitting on one table and the arba minim together. We must unify the arovus with the rest of the minim. The chelbno was included with the katoras, even though it has a bad smell, to strengthen everything. See Daroshes Haran 1March 22, 2018 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1496566
Yossi- Israel for the time being seems to be within our possession, but that too seems to have been a forced move. Pretty much all Gedolei Yisrael and Rebbe’s were opposed to creating a state of Israel whether they still opposed after the establishment of it or not. Besides Israel was in our possession many times and we have lost it many times. So is it really a step towards Moshiach? When the time is right even if it had been occupied it would have been no problem for Hashem to take it over again.
Jj-all the suffering must be mechaper for something no? Besides isn’t one of the prophecies that Yidden would no longer be able to endure the suffering and cry out to Hashem and then Moshiach would arrive?
Another point is you would think if the world would end as we know it via war or whatever, a new era would begin? Hence the era of Moshiach…March 22, 2018 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1496591
Jj-also I do agree that achdus is key. I truly believe that if ALL Yidden would truly be as one and all differences would be put aside, then Moshiach would instantly arrive. If we were truly together no individual or nation would be able to touch us.March 22, 2018 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1496752
Toi, Please explain to me how do you make the house fit for Moshiach?
I am saying we must unify ourselves to be worthy to bring him. See my post on the three pillars above.March 22, 2018 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1496775JosephParticipant
At a certain point Moshiach will come even if we c’v didn’t earn his arrival.March 22, 2018 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1496906
Joseph-thats exactly my point. Besides its the same concept as when we say “עשה למענך אם לא למעננו” also “עשה למענך והושיענו”
There are disputes though if we need to be involved and mezarez the Geula or if its not our business to intervene and meddle with the keitz….but for both opinions we for sure must wait regardless.March 22, 2018 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1497162
Joseph what you are saying is correct. There is a fixed hidden time from us that comes because of fear מלך קשה כהמן. If we don’t do teshuva by ourselves, we will be forced to do it, but we can do teshuva from love and bring the geulah before the fixed time. See the Ksav Sofer on הנסתרות לה אלקינו.March 22, 2018 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1497160CSParticipant
“If someone yearns for Moshiach, but does mitzvos because Hashem commanded, is he a kofer?”
No. It takes allot to be a kofer and we should never throw around the term lightly. However its not ideal as per the mashal. Laskern also addressed it well.
The reason why I mentioned the kofer part is because toi was telling off litvishechossid, and said he should just do Torah and mitzvos, implying he shouldn’t care when moshiach comes, and I was also pointing out that yearning for moshiach is a central tenet of Judaism.
Np toi. I was just pointing out what is wrong with that quote. Not trying to get into discussion with you as we mutually agree that certain prerequisites are missing for that.March 22, 2018 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1497234
Laskern- I’d still think we’d need a lot of good and just some bad no?
Litvish – if people suffer then go off the derech because of it I don’t think that will be mechaper. But maybe it is? Now if the suffering leads us to cry out to Hashem and that leads us to teshuvah then we’re getting somewhere. In my mind yerning for the beis hamikdash does just mean saying it. It means you are keeping all the mitzvos you can and are frustrated by the fact that you can’t do more. It’s wanting to bring corbanos to be closer to Hashem. In personaly feel far from that maybe others aren’t.March 22, 2018 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1497235
Litvishchossid – achdus is very important but it seems to me that isn’t enough. There are many Jews who have achdus in medinat Yisrael. Or achdus through their JCC or whatever. We need achdus in serving Hashem don’t we?March 23, 2018 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1497291
jj- you cant judge the victims/survivors of the holocaust. What they saw there would make anyone go mad.March 28, 2018 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1501109in galusParticipant
היום אם בקולו תשמעוMarch 29, 2018 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1501141jdbParticipant
Chevra, this is the perfect post for the coffee room. Chazal tell us what is needed. Treat each other better. Love every yid more. Don’t judge, just love them. Be Dan llaf zechus. Say good morning with a smile. Open your hearts to those less fortunate in every sense of the word.
Do your part, and you will see that moshiach is very close. So close. Yes, there is pain, but when we open our hearts to one another you will also see so much more beauty.
Chag kasher vsameach.
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