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list in order of intellectual seminaries, and how intellectual???
This is bound to start an argument lol
BY mezuraz definitely is somewhere near the top on this… Absolutely amazing teachers, and great group!
Midreshet Lindenbaum
BJJ
Hadar?
I would include Michlalah, but it is a college, not a seminary.
🙂
Jewish Theological. It even has the word “theology” in its name!
PBA: I checked if JTS has a “year in Israel” program post high school and couldn’t find it.
It is strange when we think alike. Maybe its our appreciation for satire.
yavne bais medresh l’moros
Michlala does have a seminary. There’s a seminary-college and a regular college.
Asking about the most intellectual seminaries is like asking about the skinniest obese girls or the most honest members of congress; while there may be a way to rank them, that is not the most helpful criterion to use.
can someone just answer this one question? shouldn’t there be someone representing the seminary (not necesarily the principal) to answer all these ques. pple have on the schools? does it exist or not really. thanx. amichai.
frumnotyeshivish: Are you saying that all seminaries are so non-academic that it’s futile to try and rank them by that criterion? That is a highly subjective analysis and I’d say subject to just as much speculation.
I said “not the most helpful” not “futile”. Who’s speculating here? Do you always ask bad questions, answer them falsely, then proceed to argue with your false understanding, or is it just this once?
I hear that in BJJ the learning is so advanced that the girls sit and learn and the husbands go work.
Derech: Excellent!
frumnotyeshivish: No, “not the most helpful” does not mean “futile;” however, your context definitely suggested as much. And yes, I like to do that quite often, but I’m being serious now (maybe). But if you think my understanding is false, then why don’t you endeavor to correct it?
Anyway, as someone who went to an “academic” seminary and has looked into numerous “academic” seminaries, I can assure you that that is really the only useful criterion to judge upon.
Academic and intellectual, while being related concepts, are entirely different things. Either way, my point wasn’t that it’s futile or even unimportant to know how intellectual a seminary is, rather, the reason for attending seminary has little to do with the intellectual aspect of the experience, as proven by the poor quality available overall of the aforementioned intellectual experience.
frumnotyeshivish: You make a very valid distinction; however, in this case it is misapplied. There are seminaries that are academic and there are seminaries that are intellectual and academic. And the latter aren’t as scarce as you seem to believe. So while perhaps the OP didn’t phrase her question correctly (which you really should have realized), and while it’s probably nonsensical to judge on intellectual capacity alone, I don’t think it’s invalid to judge seminaries based on their intellectual capacity b’chlal. Plus, I don’t think your assertion that the seminary experience is not much of an intellectual endeavor is correct. And I’d also like it if you argued your points with a little more “proof” and a little less sophistry.
frumnotyeshivish –
the poor quality available overall of the aforementioned intellectual experience
Huh? While I’ve heard many criticisms of seminary in my time, that has not been one of them.
He also thinks yeshiva bochurim aren’t competent enough to go to college, but they shouldn’t take the SAT. So I take his opinions on academics and/or the intellect with a grain of salt, generally.
BY Mezuraz is the new seminary that used to be Shoshanim which was totally amazing!!!!!!!!!! My daughter went there and LOVED it!!!!!!!
gefen: BY Mezuraz is greater than it ever was!
OoM – “He also thinks yeshiva bochurim aren’t competent enough to go to college, but they shouldn’t take the SAT.” Wrong and wrong. I said “few” Yeshiva guys are competent enough to make it in “real” college, and I said I took the SAT and it didn’t do a/t for me even though I did well, and the Yeshivish system of transferring credits doesn’t require taking the SAT.
As far as seminaries being intellectual vs. academic, that is precisely the point I was trying to make. Being studious, having many classes that are soooooooo amazing, even being tested repeatedly and in depth on what you learn, does not speak to the intellectual quality of what you learn. True, my subjective opinion is based on anecdotal evidence (of which I’m not sharing that much – deal with it). Is anyone here spouting anything remotely objective on this topic?
The primary motivation of a girl going to Israel for a year has little to do with the “intellectual studies” (which can’t possibly be done locally…) and likely much more to do with independence, growing up, and having fun. Rank that.
The distinction between “yeshiva bochurim aren’t competent enough to go to college,” and “‘few’ Yeshiva guys are competent enough to make it in ‘real’ college” is completely lost on me. And if the point you were making about the SAT only applied in your case, then why did you post it on that thread (without taking into account that it was irrelevant to the OP)?
Okay, so now I’ll share some non-anecdotal evidence with you. I’m a very intellectual person (feel free to contest this, too), and I was in fact very determined NOT to go to seminary in Israel for the reason you’re touting (and some others). I really wasn’t interested in spending a year memorizing trivia and being tested on it – and even less interested in going to a “non-academic” seminary. But then some people pushed me into some actual research, and I talked to some more informed people about it, and I found out that my understanding was based on exactly that – anecdotal evidence from the WRONG people.
I was even able to find a seminary that was started on the exact premise of intellectualism vs. academics. There’s some work there, and you do leave with more knowledge than you started with, but the emphasis is put on the process of obtaining knowledge – being able to read, analyze, and comprehensively compile primary sources, both in the context of class and on one’s own. That’s how I define an intellectual experience, and that’s exactly how they define it in my Honors program at college, too.
There are a lot of reasons why girls choose to go to Israel for seminary. The reasons you chose are definitely among them, but they are not exclusive, or even primary, to all prospective seminary students. There are a significant number of people who are going for the intellectual experience, and that there are a significant number of seminaries that cater to them. So it really does make sense to rank seminaries on that criterion – for the intellect-seekers and non-intellect-seekers alike. Of course, for others there might be other pressing considerations, but that doesn’t dismiss it altogether.
And I must say that your ill-informed objectivity is just as compelling as my subjectivity.
Your anecdote amuses me. Why you think your admittedly subjective opinion is “non-anecdotal” eludes me (not that I claim to be objective or an authority on the matter). I’m just voicing my opinion. I agree that there may an intellectual experience or two out there in Israel, although for English speakers I believe one can find more such suitable experiences in the US. Yes one can try to rank such seminaries but IMO there are more relevant ways to rank seminaries which take into account the reasons the vast majority of the people which attend them value.
Although I believe that you believe your story, the way you’ve “read”, “analyzed”, and “comprehensively compiled” your beliefs as to what I wrote, said, or intended, makes me doubt the intellectual quality of the process you espouse.
I can defend my other posts in other threads at length but don’t have the time or energy right now.
I don’t think you understand what “anecdotal evidence” means. From Wikipedia:
“Accounts of direct personal experience are commonly equated to anecdotal evidence where the evidence is anecdote, hearsay or represents a conclusion deduced from generalization. Unlike anecdotal evidence, the reliability of accounts of personal experience is normally capable of assessment for legal proceedings.”
But enough nitpicking already. My point is, you really don’t know anything about seminary-age girls and their considerations for seminary, so your opinion is understandably based on a very nebulous understanding of teenage girls and their seminaries. The academic and/or intellectual content of a seminary is a factor in every sem girl’s decision, whether she is looking for that content or not. Of course, if there are other factors that are much more important to a person, they will probably trump. But a lot of people do rank seminaries by their intellectual value.
And I don’t know what you think personal attacks add to your argument. They are pointless, really.
(For the record, I’d just like to say that I really agree with you on the smoking thread. I think I’ll toodle on over there now. 🙂 )
Anecdotal as in subjective and non-representative in regard to a purportedly objective assertion has nothing to do with the laws of evidence and hearsay. The laws of evidence are to limit the jury’s exposure to prejudicial evidence that has little probative value. Anecdotal evidence as I meant it and understood it, and how I think most people would, is in regard to a scientific study, where anecdotal evidence doesn’t say much, if anything. An example of this would be: my great grandfather smoked and lived until 110 when he died from being hit by a drunk driver. This is evidence that smoking is less likely to kill you than a drunk driver. Obviously, one person’s experience a rule makes not. This is anecdotal evidence.
Wikipedia, while useful, is not a particularly credible or persuasive source. It reminds me (l’havdil) of R’ Ribiat’s 4 volume hilchos shabbos set. Comprehensive, somewhat organized, innaccurate as to the bottom line, and a goldmine of additional sources.
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