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Can we celebrate or not? explain
You don’t?!? What kind of son are you?? At least every Erev Shabbos I hope you do something nice for them.
personally, I don’t mind at all:-)
what is wrong with celebrating mothers day? its very nice to say that every day is mothers day, but does every husband/child treat their wife/mother like a queen every single day? yes, she is loved and appreciated every day, but it is not necessarily demonstrated to her every single day. there is nothing wrong with demonstrating love and appreciation. mothers day is a halmark day- no religious/pagan/other reasoning behind it, at least to my knowledge, so we are not condoning something assur by “celebrating” it. and besides, even in your celebration, what are you doing already? telling her she has one day off from doing laundry? making her a nice breakfast? taking her out to eat? getting flowers? none of those things are terrible. perhaps if wives/mothers were shown a little bit more appreciation for their role, this would not even be a question.
You can — and should — do all that every day. And if it isn’t practical every day, then as often as practical. Once a year is wholly unacceptable and entirely un-Jewish.
BTW, mother’s day came about when it was proposed in Congress in the early 1900’s by a Klu Kulx Klan Congressman. It figures.
First of all, what is wrong with taking one day to make sure you do everything in your power to treat your spouse/parent like the king/queen that they really are? That doesn’t take away from any other day of the year, it just means you are more focused on it for one day. Second, why is making one day special such a non-jewish idea? Not that I am comparing the two in the slightest bit, but we do have such a concept with yom kippur. Every day of the year it is understood that we should be doing t’shuva for all of our sins, but on yom kippur there is an extra specialness to it. Again, I am not comparing the two, so please don’t jump on me for that. All I am saying is that we DO have a concept of taking one day and emphasizing something which we should be doing every other da as well.
The problem is that we’ve been brainwashed by popular thought to the point we don’t even recognize a goyishe idea. This is one of the (many) terrible effects of golus. There is no comparison whatsoever between a Torah given Yom Kippur and some “mother’s day” (which to us Yidden is everyday) initiated by some drunkard in Congress or wherever that doesn’t understand one iota of Kibud Av V’Eim.
We have Kibud Av V’Eim. We focus on this fully and completely everyday — it is one of the cardinal laws of Judaism and part of the Aseres HaDibros. They have “mother’s day.” When you have a “mother’s day”, every other day of the year is an excuse to kick your mother to the curb. Uch un vay, nebech, for the nochrim.
All the American Roshei Yeshiva worked on their Mother’s Days projects when they were kids (and all Yeshivos celebrated it); like Thanksgiving. I guess it them no harm.
And if a Mother expects a call, or card, or flowers; than it may be assur not to.
When you have a “mother’s day”, every other day of the year is an excuse to kick your mother to the curb. Uch un vay, nebech, for the nochrim.
When you have Yom Kippur, every other day of the year is an excuse to sin without worrying about repentence.
When you have Tisha B’Av, every other day of the year is an excuse to forget about the loss of the Bais HaMikdash.
When you have Shavuous, every other day of the year is an excuse to kick Torah learning to the curb.
See how silly your argument is?
Don’t you think it’s possible… just possible that people can honor their parents and yet still have a day set aside for just such a purpose?
The Wolf
“Perhaps Chukas Hagoyim”
so many things we do is chukas hagoy and wats wrong with appreciating your mom once a yr at least its only flowers and maybe a box of chocolates and a kiss if you want i find nothing wrong with it
OH PULEEEEESE…There is absolutely nothing wrong with it! This is precisely what we dont need in Klal Yisroel, to have machlokes about something so Parve and non denominational as Mothers Day. My daughter came home with a Mothers day project for my wife (we live out of town and she goes to a VERY FRUM YESHIVISH school)
volvie, which KKK congressman proposed the legislation to create Mothers’ Day?
anon: Rep. James Thomas Heflin from Alabama.
Wolf & Co.: As I previously said, golus has negatively affected our outlook where sometimes we cannot even recognize a goyishe idea for being what it is. To compare mother’s day l’havdil elef havdolos to Yom Kippur, Shavuous et al in any shape matter or form, clearly demonstrates this. It blatantly ignores the absolute indesputable fact that a Yid is different than a goy spiritually, mentally, and yes even physically.
(The Gemara suggests that the Shichvas Zera of a Nochri has different properties from that of a Jew, since the Nochri eats non-Kosher foods and is physically affected by his diet. The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos YD 175) writes that this Gemara is relevant in practice. He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew. Rav Elyashev shlita pointed out that the Chasam Sofer writes that the physical characteristics of a Yid are different than a Goy, and that what applies to one may not apply to the other. Therefore, said Rav Elyashev, how much more so regarding the mind/soul?)
Volvie,
I wasn’t comparing Mother’s Day to the other holidays… I was showing that your argument was bogus. Your contention was that having a “Mother’s Day” means that every other day is an “excuse to kick your mother to the curb.” IOW, having one day set aside to honor someone gives you license to treat them badly the rest of the year. I simply showed you that it’s simply not true, based on examples from our own calendar.
The Wolf
You need to take your proverbial head out of the golus sand to see the light.
volvie – “the physical characteristics of a Yid are different than a Goy”.
Can you give a few examples?
volvie, which KKK congressman proposed the legislation to create Mothers’ Day?
Not that it matters. Mother’s Day is a good or bad idea regardless of the person who proposed it.
The Wolf
Yes Volvie, when one’s mother is feeling unappreciated and miserable on Mothers’ Day because nothing was done for her, I’m sure explaining to her about chukas ha’goyim will really bring a smile to her face. oh, brother…
Read it directly in Chasam Sofer Teshuvos YD 175 (and as expounded upon by Rav Elyashev shlita) for the best understanding. It’s based upon the Gemorah.
He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew.
Do you go to a doctor who follows this theory? Does your pharmacist? Or your dentist? If not, aren’t you endangering your life since perhaps the treatments he learned in medical school will actually harm you instead of helping you?
The Wolf
You need to take your proverbial head out of the golus sand to see the light.
So, Volvie, instead of throwing around ad hominems, please explain it to me.
How is it that having a “Mother’s Day” is an excuse to “kick your mother to the curb” the other days of the year, but having Tisha B’Av is not an excuse to “kick mourning for the loss of the Bais HaMikdash to the curb?”
The Wolf
Let’s see… on one side of the scale we have the opinion of “Wolfish” and on the other side of the sale we have the combined weight of the Gemorah, the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Elyashev shlita.
Hmm…
volvie – “Read it directly in Chasam Sofer Teshuvos YD 175 (and as expounded upon by Rav Elyashev shlita) for the best understanding. It’s based upon the Gemorah.”
Can you give a few examples?
Read it inside.
Let’s see… on one side of the scale we have the opinion of “Wolfish” and on the other side of the sale we have the combined weight of the Gemorah, the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Elyashev shlita.
Cute. But you didn’t answer the question I asked.
Does your doctor follow this theory when prescribing treatments for you? Does your pharmacist? Your dentist?
The Wolf
volvie – That’s not how it works around here; you posted some definitive statements, so back it up. Since you obviously read what you claim, give the CRers some examples.
My “backup” is Chasam Sofer Teshuvos YD 175. If you have any doubts, crack open the Sefer.
Nesei Sefer Venechzei.
I (being the wonderful son that I am) picked up both my father and mother from home, took them (and my Mrs) to dinner last night and drove them home afterwards.
Surprised? Don’t be. It was a shul dinner, and I would have done the same thing on a Tuesday. Get the point? EVERY day is mothers / fathers day and we Yidden wrote the book (ok, received the Book) on how to treat parents.
Hallmark and FTD say that yeterday was special, but they are not talking to us. If anything, they are talking ABOUT us (meaning: look at the Yidden and you’ll see how to treat parents)
the sale we have the combined weight of the Gemorah, the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Elyashev shlita.
And although I don’t want to open up the whole Chazal/Science issue again, I do feel that this needs to be pointed out.
What the Gemara thought about treatments is not relevant. The treatments mentioned in the Gemara are not used today, nor is the medical advice in general.
The Chasam Sofer was not a doctor. He didn’t have access to advanced medical data.
Rav Eliyashiv is not a doctor. I may go to him when I need advice on halachic matters. I will not go to him for a medical problem, a plumbing problem, an electrical problem, an investment question or a computer issue. Why? Because he’s not an expert in those fields.
The Wolf
BP,
Again, having one day set aside as special doesn’t detract from any other day… just as having Tisha B’Av set aside for mourning the loss of the Bais HaMikdash doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t observe it other days as well.
The Wolf
good job bp totty!!
volvie – May I suggest to you that you read the texts yourself instead of posting verbatim what others have stated on the net. No examples are shown.
Wolf: “What the Gemara thought about treatments is not relevant.”
Wolf, I was just asking who proposed Mothers Day because I didn’t know that information. Personally I don’t believe that everything a politician does is tainted because I don’t agree with his beliefs (though perhaps it should raise one’s index of suspicion).
cherrybim, who knows how much greater those Roshei Yeshiva would’ve been if their pure neshomos had not been tainted by tracing handprint turkeys and coloring mothers’ day cards in their innocent childhood years?
Volvie,
So, once again, I ask you…
If Chazal tell us that treatments that will work on a non-Jew may not work on a Jew (or vice versa), do you make sure that your doctor knows this and only prescribes the treatments that work on Jews? Does he prescribe different treatments for Jews and non-Jews?
If (God forbid) you need to go to the ER, will you make sure to get a doctor who will give you the “right” treatment, rather than the one they learned in medical school for everyone else? Do you believe that Jews have died in ERs around the country solely because they were given medical treatments that would have otherwise worked on non-Jews?
Does you pharmacist believe that medications he prescribes for non-Jews might be harmful to you? Does your dentist?
The Wolf
The Chasam Sofer states that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew. The Chasam Sofer does not state that it will most certainly be ineffective.
I do not profess as to being the expert on the Chasam Sofer. For further inquiries on this matter, please read the Chasam Sofer and direct your shailos to your local Ultra-Orthodox Talmid Chachom. (This shall serve as my final statement on this matter. For all further inquiries relating to this issue directed toward me, please re-read the preceding paragraph. Yours Most Sincerely, Volvie Gumpel)
anon for this – “who knows how much greater those Roshei Yeshiva would’ve been if their pure neshomos had not been tainted by…”
That’s like saying: How much greater would Rav Aharon Kotler or Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky have been if they had not read classical literature in their younger years or how much greater would the Lubavitcher Rebbe or Rav Hutner have been had they not studied in the university. Or how much greater would Moshe Rabeinu have been had he not been raised by Pharoh’s daughter.
It’s silly.
Wolf-
I will step in to point out that the comparison to Tisha B’av is not a good one. In this point, volvie is correct in saying that yiddin do not have a “singled out” day for demonstration of X. The closest we do have is Tisha B’av and the 3 Weeks. Chazal recognized that it would not be healthy for us to be in constant state of mourning throughout the year and therefore designated a small period of time during which to express mourning (and many hold that they also confined all future communal mourning to be observed during this period). They established a specific day (or weeks, as it were) only to limit our mourning to a healthy amount of time. The same could not be said for singling out one day over another for positive expression, such as kibbud av v’em.
That aside, I do agree with cherrybim who said that if your mother expects something on the day then that is your chiyyuv of kibbud em for the day 🙂
On the subject of Chazal/Science, it has already been established here over and over again that there are two camps. One camp, of the latter day yeshiva movement believes in the infallibility of Chazal in all matters of knowledge. The other camp believes (as expressed clearly by R’ Hirsch in the introduction to Horeb) that Chazal were experts in Torah and in addition were on par with science experts of their time (i.e. not infallible in that regard). Neither camp will be convinced to change its views since both obtained said view from their own halachic sources. In that, it is no different than the eruv debate, or the question of the kashrus of bugs in the water. Hence, the debate here is pointless.
Regarding medical treatments found in the gemara – we are expressly forbidden to use them these days (except for one – fish bone stuck) precisely because they may not work today. Again, why they may not work would be explained differently by the two camps.
Volvie,
Putting aside the Torah/Science issue (which I didn’t really want to get into anyway) perhaps we can get back to the subject at hand – Mother’s Day.
Specifically, I refer you back to the previous question…
You said:
You need to take your proverbial head out of the golus sand to see the light.
And I responded:
How is it that having a “Mother’s Day” is an excuse to “kick your mother to the curb” the other days of the year, but having Tisha B’Av is not an excuse to “kick mourning for the loss of the Bais HaMikdash to the curb?”
I await your reply.
The Wolf
Volvie, you cropped the quote. I saw this quoted in Yalkut Yosef, and roughly quoted from memory: “I have always questioned why we do not have our own medical schools but rely on the goyish institutions and their experts who are naught and their knowledge is naught for their experience is based on goyim who eat shkatzim urmasim,, how does this apply to a Jew who avoids (d’d’igi) skatzim uremasim.” Now if we held by the Rema, why would we need medical schools when we can access the big medicine from the bais medrash? Clearly few people trumpet this viewpoint ( shitta) and fewer still act by it. Personally, I don’t like the word infallible. We (some Jews) have the concept shegga for the Nasi and Par Helem Davar for the Bet Din.
well, volvie asked us to look up the chassam sofer, so i did! And indeed, volvie is correct that the chassam sofer (YD 175) does indeed maintain that the bodies of Jews may be different than the ones from gentiles- because they eat “shekotzim uremossim” (unclean animals)This is based upon the gemoro (found three times in shabbos 86B, Avoidoh zorh 31B and niddah 34B)that points out this difference. Incidentally, the teshuvos is very long and deals with questions of niddah and “vesset” and “maros”.
In itself, i don’t find this assertion remarkable. Are the bodies of pure vegetarians different than from carnivores? I can readily accept that, especially as it relates to cures, when some cures may work on the body and some do not.It is incrotovertible that the bodies of herbivores are different than those of carnivores.
What i fail to see is what al lthis hs to do with Mother’s day??
there is absolutely nothing wrong in identifying one day to honor one’s mother once a year. We celebrate Shavuos as the day Torah was given. We continue to say the same the same all year round but one day is set aside for this special occasion.Same with Mother’s day- even if we have the mitzvah every minute of every day.
As far as the debate on science vs. Kabboloh, I take issue with ‘squeak’, and by implication volvie, saying the yeshiva world believes in the “infallibity of chazal in all matters of knowledge”. Thye never claimed it, the nevi’im never claimed it and this is a newfangled idea that arose in recent times. The only thing that is infallible is hakodosh boruch huh and the torah. everything else and everyone else is fallible. In matters of halocho, you must follow the Chachomim but in matters of knowledge- “man dekar shemei?”
Wolf, squeak responded well to your inquiry.
squeak, I don’t think it is limited to the latter day Yeshiva movement, unless you are including the Rema, the Maharal, and the Chasam Sofer (to name some) amongst that group.
rob, A few posts back I cited the Rema (for one) who mentions Chazal’s infallibility.
Chazal recognized that it would not be healthy for us to be in constant state of mourning throughout the year and therefore designated a small period of time during which to express mourning (and many hold that they also confined all future communal mourning to be observed during this period). They established a specific day (or weeks, as it were) only to limit our mourning to a healthy amount of time.
Fine. Substitute Torah Learning and Shavous — Yom Kippur and repentence — Pesach and remembering the Exodus.
Same questions apply.
The Wolf
volvie-you are quoting the “remo’ who (you say) says that “rabbinic science is infallible”. i will haver to check that quote but if I maintain that no Chochom -as big as he is- is infallible, then the Remo falls in that category and he too, may be mistaken. so what he said (if indeed he said it) about rabbinic science is not correct.Note again, that I do not dispute the remo’s authority in the area of Psak but I can certainly assert that I do not accept his version of rabbinic infallibity in the matter of science.
rabbiofberlin – “i don’t find this assertion remarkable”
Are you saying that Jews can be identified by their DNA, and also be distinguished from non-Jews, which can be traced back thousands of years? Would it stand up in Bais Din?
To be clear – regarding the issue of Mother’s Day I was responding from the perspective of those against observing. I merely stated that there is no similar day of observation in our religion (Shavuos, Y”K, and the like being commandments themselves and not merely a day to stress observance of a particular commandment).
That said, I fail to see why that should deter any of us from observing MD. If for no other reason, do it so that “we” are no less involved in showing respect for our parents than “they” on ANY day of the year. There is surely no call to specifically avoid calling your mother on MD. And while on the subject, another day of the year stands out – YOUR BIRTHDAY – as a day to call and thank your mother for giving you life.
ROB – While volvie and perhaps others will claim that Chazal’s infallibility is a tradition inherited from earlier generations, I preempted this by saying “latter day yeshiva movement”.
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