- This topic has 60 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
I’ve noticed lately (more often, lately) that many wedding invites have the Chosson/Kallahs parents written as “Father and family”. Where did the mothers name go, and why is she categorized with a sibling?
(Serious question. It really bothers me.)
Please play nicely, children
Modesty. Traditionally a woman’s name isn’t put in public. Chaim Yankel Zunderfield Urusoi. Even amongst secular society it used to be “Mr. and Mrs. John Doe”. While goyish society threw out any semblence of tznius, Klal Yisroel did not.
It’s always been that way. I am not taking sides here, but the fact is it’s a more modern, feminist thing to write the mother’s name. Why does the woman take the man’s last name? Why are couples addressed as Mr. and Mrs. John Smith and not Mr. John and Mrs. Jill Smith? Or the opposite way while we’re at it? If you want to debate that this is wrong, go ahead, but you can’t really ask where the mother’s name went. As far as I know it has always been the social norm.
It could however be that you are simply noticing that people who had previously (during the last few generations) changed with the times are now changing back to the old way. That’s a good point. There does seem to be a shift in some circles to more conservative norms.
I don’t know what happened, but I do know that on bar mitzvah invitations we are sending out it says clearly , mr and mrs avraham and sarah cohen not mr and mrs avraham cohen, would like to invite…
Last time I checked my wifes full name was written on the kesubah, not “bas ploni” and until my rav tells me otherwise will continue to print invitations this way. Iy”h when it comes time to wedding invitations, we hope the mechutanim think the same way, but will cross that bridge when we get to it.
that has troubled me also.
on all four of my children’s invitations we used “DH’s first name & my first name” in the Hebrew format.
on my younger daughter’s & younger son’s invitations, in addition to the Hebrew, we used ‘DH’s first name & my first name’ in the English as well.
I think it depends. As we all know, people shouldn’t converse with the opposite gender, even by writing. If the father is sending out invitations, he should address it to “Rabbi/Mr. Ploni and family”.
However, let’s say there a case where the chosson/kallah has no father involved – either because of a death, divorce, or some other reason. In such a case, all letters should be addressed to “Mrs. Plonis and family”.
The question is what to do if there’s a guest that is single. In such a case, I think a posek needs to be asked as to how to address the invitation. Maybe address it to “Current Resident”?
Pac-Man, you seem to be saying that naming a woman in a wedding invitation violates tznius standards. If so, why is it appropriate to give the kallah’s name?
I’ve never seen an invitation like this. And I can assure you all that on my wedding invitation, it will absolutely say my mother’s name.
Middle- I guess things between you and your family are not so strained like you make it sound if you want her on your invitation.
JJ
Well, adorable, that is partly true..but to be more clear, I would ONLY want my mother’s name. Understand now?
“Modesty. Traditionally a woman’s name isn’t put in public”
better tell my wife to put my name on her business cards…although I doubt I’m qualified to be a social worker like her…
I don’t see that.
I see the man and womans name.
Although I am curious how many Shetichye’s there are in the world, it seems like so many!
It must be changing the mother’s name to Shetichye is a segulah to get your daughter married.
For those who put Chaim & Esther Grossbergman on the invititation, do they address every invitation that way?? So far all the invitations that I recieve are addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Humble Me.
Middle- I got it! at least you’re still connected to someone
“So far all the invitations that I recieve are addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Humble Me”
Thats because the mailing labels we used were not big enough to accommodate the entire name. In fact our invitations were sent out to Mr. & MRs. A and S Strauss
Thats because the mailing labels we used were not big enough to accommodate the entire name.
Mailing labels are sufficiently long if they wanted it. The fact is the traditional address is to “Mr. & Mrs. Charles Cohen”. Like yitayningwut mentioned, any deviation from that (even amongst the secular) comes from feminism of relatively recent vintage.
Droid. That is the mailing address.
The invitation is “traditionally” from Mr. and Mrs. Charles and Charlene Cohen.
When I was a bachur I was a frequent guest at the home of the Plonis. I thought for quite some time that Mrs. Plonis name was “Herna” because that is how she was addressed by her husband.
apushutayid – actually the traditional “from” party on an invitation was also “Mr. and Mrs. Charles Cohen”.
I also heard the “hernor” by my Rov ztvk”l calling his Rebbitzen anytime anyone else was within hearing distance. It is a tznius geder.
it makes me so nervous when a husband calls his wife “ma/ima…” in public. I think they do it because of tznius but its so annoying. SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER! SHE IS YOUR WIFE!
That’s why there is “herr nor”, as mentioned above.
“Middle- I got it! at least you’re still connected to someone”
Your’e absolutely right, and I am grateful for that. And I agree with you about a guy calling his wife “ma” or “imma”, when not in front of their kids…it’s very strange.
My SIL always called me by my first name until the kids were old enough to call me Bubbie. Since then, he has always called me Bubbie as well. I love it.
I don’t know of anyone who named their child Ima. “
Former Governor Hogg of Iowa did (you can check this out – it’s true). Some parents should be shot.
Like I said previously, my wife and I will continue to use both our names in all our correspondence including invitations until my Rav tells me not to. He has received 3 invitations from us for various simchos so far (may we be zoche to many more) and has not made a single comment about my wifes name appearing on the invitation. If “her na” is your ravs geder, so be it, he can make all the gedarim he wants for himself, and those who seek his guidance. My rav calls his rebbetzin by her name when calling to her, “her na” is obviously not his geder.
Droid
May I ask who your Rav was?
All I can say is that my mother and mother-in-law’s names were on our wedding invitations and, unless my kids object, we plan on having my wife’s name on our kids’ wedding invitations.
The Wolf
rut roh. Does this mean I need a new username?
Opti, many famous Rabbonin did that, including the Maharil.
“it makes me so nervous when a husband calls his wife “ma/ima”
It certainly beats the custom that many Gentiles use – calling their wives “the missus” or “the old lady”. Makes me grit my teeth.
The old lady is still better than the old ball and chain.
For those who put Chaim & Esther Grossbergman on the invitation, do they address every invitation that way??
Hopefully not otherwise they’d be inviting that couple a few hundred times to the Simcha and nobody else!
“it makes me so nervous when a husband calls his wife “ma/ima…” in public. I think they do it because of tznius but its so annoying. SHE IS NOT YOUR MOTHER! SHE IS YOUR WIFE!”
a pet peeve of mine!
From what I’ve seen, a man might call his wife “ma/ima” not for tznius reasons. When I’ve heard it, the wife calls the father “Tatty”, too. I think they do this because they want to model for their children and don’t want the child to use his parent’s name to address him/her.
I know why they do it but she is not his MOMMY/IMA and he is not her TOTTY/ABA…
Adorable: calling your spouse Ima or Tatty often just becomes a habit. When Ima tells one of the children to call their father for dinner, she will say “tell Tatty to come to the table” not “tell Charles to come to the table”. After awhile, its habitual, although it does sound strange outside of the house at an adults only function. Hopefully people remember to use their spouses actual names at such times.
Klal Yisroel doesn’t follow feminist trends.
“Klal Yisroel doesn’t follow feminist trends”
UJM: Come on, at least show some originality in your trolls……..if my daughter was marrying into your family, I’d probably just refer to you as P.O. Box -1. Your continuing effort to affirm your creds as the CR’s resident misogynist require occasional flashes of creative content.
Wow!!!
How have you spent the last ten years?!? Is it only me that realized…
(ps there must be something more to life… Even I found some signs of former life outside the CR)
By the chasidishe, they used to put the word ורעיתו to refer to the mother now they put וב’ב – ובני ביתו also והרבנית indicating the Rebitzin but the name is not mentioned.
Reb Eliezer, they use ורעיתו by non-Chasidim too.
I’m sorry ujm but you’re so wrong. Its not following trends to recognise a mother’s role and the fact that she gave you life and raised you!
Maran Hagaon R’ Chaim Brisker z”l, had his wife’s name with his on the printed wedding invitations he sent out to his Son, hagaon R’ Moishe z”l’s wedding to the daughter of his mechutan Zkan Haravbonim Hagaon R’ Elya Pruzhiner z”l.
I just got an invitation from my Rebbi’s son, Rav Dovid Aryeh Ehrenfeld current Matisdorfer Rav Shlita, who is marrying of his son, designating his wife, mother of the chasan and the rest of the family. as above ubnei beiso.
Why does modesty necessitate this? What will happen if a woman’s name is in public? Will people have hirhurim from that?? I should hope not. The traditional “Mr. and Mrs. John Doe” was more about the subjugation of the woman that modesty. Because Mr. Doe called all the shots, only his name was relevant. When women began to have rights of their own, the practice stopped for the most part. So why does modesty demand that the woman’s name be hidden???
Rav Wolbe ZT”L once said regarding avoiding tayvos “You can’t ignore the bekiyus forever, because then it just becomes be’iyun”. If we treat every potential tzniyus issue (a bekiyus) as a major problem and block it out, then we’re just training boys and men to see every women as a source of tayvoh.
Justalakewooder – the actual translation of the word tzenua would explain the answer to your question. It’s not just about hirhurim, it’s about kol kevudah bas melech penima. “Tzenua” means literally “hidden”
Would you believe some women retained their inner sense of modesty and are uncomfortable having their name posted on letters, invitations etc. No it’s not assur, it’s a feeling.
I have a close friend whose wife is a public speaker, he says he and wife cringe when they see her name posted and plastered all over… It’s a matter of feeling…
I think what ujm meant – and i completely agree – is that writing the name of a woman on an invitation in and of itself isn’t feminist, nor does it have to symbolize anything. However, if people omit the name out of a sensitivity to tznius that is not required by halacha, or even if their original intentions were to save money on printing costs (entirely possible) then to be’davka change it due to modern cultural ethos would be in fact, following a feminist agenda.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.