Move to Eretz Yisroel Without Accepting Citizenship

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  • #943732

    Toi
    Participant

    let the zionists disappear and stop causing tremendous damage.

    #943733

    Avi K:

    Please do also respond to my question:

    ================================

    Avi K and AinOhdMilvado:

    I’d just like to confirm that both of you:

    1) Live in Israel;

    2) Have renounced your American citizenship and are indeed no longer American citizens;

    3) That you have done the same for your wifes and children and possible grandchildren (ie, that nobody in your family holds an American citizenship).

    If I am mistaken and you are not originally American, then replace ‘American’ with Canadian, British, or whatever your nationality was before becoming Israeli.

    ============================

    Otherwise, please retract your words:

    “me, anyone who wants to “keep his options often” as “hishtadlut” is oevr on the Sin of the Spies (unless he is already receiving benefits as a citizen of another counntry and woiuld lose them).”

    Same for AOM. Still awaiting your reply to that.

    #943734

    Avi K
    Participant

    CG, I do live in Israel and have not renounced my American citizenship (I hold dual citizenship). As I previously posted the State Dept. makes it virtually impossible to do so. Even Lee Harvey Oswald did not succeed despite having defected to the FSU during the hight of the Cold War. Actually, I haven’t bothered to renew my US passport even though it expired a few years ago. However, I am planning to do as it would be nice to visit my family and not have to request a visa. Also one never knows if one will need to attend to some personal matter at the drop of a hat – as happened when my father z”l passed away unexpectedly. I was referrring to the idea of a passport as an “insurance policy” in case Israel goes down c”v.

    #943735

    adams
    Participant

    Regarding the OP, you can def. not take the Israeli citizenship I know people there over 40 years who are not citizens. POssibly you do have to leave every so often. Children born there might be harder to do.

    Regarding the hatred of the current Medina, I ask this every time but never see an answer.

    The main population which is not frum.

    1. If there was no Medina, wherever they lived, do you honestly think they would still be Jewish.

    2. WHile the state was not yet established in the period WW2, do you acknowledge that many Jews had no where else to escape or run to, and would have perished had it not been for the Zionist settlement.

    Getting back to #1, does the average non frum Israeli (non frum varies of course) perform more Mitzvos than the counterpart in CH”ul, those who are still Jews of course.

    #943736

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    The Real Chasidishe Gatesheader…

    I am not going to respond to your inquiry above NOT because I CAN’T respond appropriately, but simply because

    A) I have no obligation to,

    B) you and I are way too far apart on this topic to ever have a meeting of the minds, and

    C) despite that, I am happy if you are nevertheless living here in E.Y. (which I’m assuming you are) which right away puts you head and shoulders above all our brothers and sisters who do not even aspire to live here (at least until mashiach comes, and I’m really not so sure about after he comes either).

    So…

    I will just say this to you…

    You DO have some very funny entries on the Joke thread here in the C.R.

    -T’hiyeh Bari!

    #943737

    Avi K
    Participant

    BTW, many Jews in Britain and the Continent, especially, but not only, frum Jews are buying “insurance policy” apartments here as the atmosphere there is similar to that of just before the Holocaust.

    #943738

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K – Tell me who is closer to missile fire from Iran -Israel or the US?

    #943739

    @health, good point – I should move from the UK to the US, since it’s even further away from Iran. 🙂

    Seriously, living in the UK really does give me an amazing peace of mind, in that regard. In E”Y I was there during the last parts of the second ‘intifada’, I was there during the 2006 Lebanon war, and I always knew some day there was the chance we would suddenly get hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands (just recently the IDF Chief of Stadd said 200,000) missiles raining down on me.

    Here in the UK, there is, basically, no serious chance of anything like that ever going to happen again anytime soon. The Iranian missiles can’t reach the UK, and even if they could, Iran couldn’t by any means build enough nukes to turn all of Europe into a huge parking lot.

    Really, the knowledge that the UK is safe from any type of local war (excluding the Falklands which is heating up, but that’s not exactly ‘local’ even though it is UK territory), really does give me some peace of mind.

    #943740

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, according to Yechezkel the US. Or they could miss slightly and hit Ramallah.

    CG, Britainastan? Are you kidding?The wife of a friend of mine went to Manchester for a bar mitzva. She said that the moment she left the Jewish area she was filled with fear.

    Both of you are over on hotzaat dibat haAretz and the Chetr HaMeraglim.

    #943741

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, according to Yechezkel the US. Or they could miss slightly and hit Ramallah.”

    If you’re talking about the Novi -quote the Pasuk.

    “Both of you are over on hotzaat dibat haAretz and the Chetr HaMeraglim.”

    And you’re Oiver Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha.

    Even not like the Satmar Rebbe who said it’s better to live in Chutz L’aaretz, the Poskim barely Mattired living in EY during a time of Sakana -it’s definitely not a Chiyuv!

    #943742

    Toi
    Participant

    avi- you really love pulling out the “I decided youre being over lavvin and you cant do anything about it” card. dont tell me youve never, not once, complained about things in ey. so put a sock in it.

    #943743

    @avi K:

    “She said that the moment she left the Jewish area she was filled with fear.”

    It’s not that bad. Also: could you describe the feeling you felt when you walked through the Old City but accidentally walked out of the Jewish Quarter into the Muslim Quarter? When is the last time you went for a nice Shabbos walk in Ras el-Amud, Silwan or Isawiya? (All alone and unarmed, of course, with a big knit kippah on your head.)

    There are dangerous places everywhere. In the UK, in The Netherlands, in Belgium, in France, in Germany, and in the US as well. And in E”Y as well. What’s the big deal? That’s life.

    In any case, the number of people who were killed for being Jews in Britain is still a lot lower than the same number in E”Y.

    #943744

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    CG

    Wasnt there a massive Terrorist attack in the London Underground a few years ago.

    #943745

    Avi K
    Participant

    CG, as a matter off act I walk through the “Moslem” Quarter (the old Jewish Qyarter now being restored) every Chol HaMoed for the traditional Yom Iyun at Yeshivat Ateret Yerushalayim.I don not have reason to go to the other places you have mentioned – and neither have I been to Tel Aviv or Haifa in several years. Simply no reason.

    #943746

    Toi
    Participant

    yes avi, but youre afraid to do so, reason or not. so youre being oiver too. so put a sock in it.

    #943747

    @zahavasdad:

    “Wasnt there a massive Terrorist attack in the London Underground a few years ago.”

    Yep. 52 people were killed by terrorism, on a population of 62 million.

    In the Second Intifada, 1100 Israelis were killed by terrorism, on a population of 7 million. And that is only the period of 2000-2005 – not counting any deaths after 2005.

    In the US, on 9/11, 2996 died.

    Can you do the math or do I need to calculate statistically how much more chances an Israeli has of being killed by terrorism than an American?

    @avi K:

    “CG, as a matter off act I walk through the “Moslem” Quarter (the old Jewish Qyarter now being restored) every Chol HaMoed for the traditional Yom Iyun at Yeshivat Ateret Yerushalayim.”

    Yeah, right, on Chol HaMoed, in a crowd of others with armed guards. Or carrying a weapon yourself, even?

    “I don not have reason to go to the other places you have mentioned – and neither have I been to Tel Aviv or Haifa in several years. Simply no reason.”

    Neither do I have any reason to go to known problematic areas here. Simply no reason.

    #943748

    Avi K
    Participant

    CG, what about all of the “regular” crime – like the recent riots there? When the first Gulf War started the chevruta of a friend of mine receievd frantic phone call fom his mother. When she finally calmed down she evry matter-of-factly said “BTW, last week your brother was held up at gunpoint”.

    In nay case, we live here because EY is a part of us (see the beginning of “Orot” and see Chesed LeAvraham Mayaan Shelishi on people who succeed here and those who do not and spend their time being motzi dibata) and because of the mitzva.I even know someone who went to Chutz LaAretz for three weeks to visit his brother and became physically ill from Galut.

    #943749

    Avi K
    Participant

    Sefat Emet (Vilna, 5636 [1876]), p. 32b

    HaShem decreed that just as all the men who have seen My glory (BeMidbar 14:22) – meaning, the generation of the spies will not see the Land, the same is true of future generations. Anyone who spreads an evil report about the Land will be stricken and will receive the punishment of the spies. This is the meaning of [the

    next verse] And all who provoke Me shall not see it (ibid. 14:23), which refers to the future.

    ??? ?? – ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ????? ????:

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ????, ?????? ????? ???’ ??? ???? ??????? ??”? ??? ?????? ??”?, ????????? ????? ???? ??’ ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????, ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??. ???? ???? ????? ???”? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??, ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?’ ?????? ?????? ?????, ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ????, ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ?? ?? ?? ???????:

    ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????, ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????, ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??”? ?????? ????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ????. ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???, ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???, ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????. ????”?. ???”?:

    #943750

    tahini
    Member

    Just got back from Jerusalem and arrived in London my family get the usual stares/comments, used to them as orthodox Jews living in the UK.

    Chassidishe Gatesheader I am glad you feel safe and welcome in the UK, seeing my sons in EY I feel however life is not merely about being safe, it is also about with whom we choose to identify and protect. EY is not as safe as the UK or USA, it is however for some of us the focus of our daily prayers and beliefs, I feel a sense of belonging and spirituality second to none in EY. Yes I am an orthodox zionist, my kids are a mix from charedi to modern orthodox, but in EY we all feel a sense of klal yisrael, we all hold Israeli citizenship, I was born in Jerusalem and would rather cut my right arm off than renounce my citizenship.

    #943752

    MeinMeinung
    Member

    Does someone with a Israeli permanent resident visa (Toshav Keva) have problems returning to Israel if he hasn’t served in the army? Could a permanent resident visa be renounced with having problems that the state doesn’t agree (as is the case with a regular citizenship)?

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