May 14, 2022 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2086465tunaisafishParticipant
My great grandfather OBM was drafted to fight in the Vietnam war as a bochur. When he came to the army doctor for a medical check-up he took one look at his pear, peyos and Chasidic garb and asked him two questions. “Do you go to the movies?” “No…”. “Do you hang out with girls?” “No”. The doctor wrote in his file that hes crazy but dangerous, and based on those two questions my great grandfather was dishonourably discharged from the American army.
I may have gotten some details wrong.May 15, 2022 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2086684bob hample1Participant
at least thats all they askedMay 15, 2022 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2086736Sam KleinParticipant
Boruch Hashem his life was saved due to his smart answering and directly from the help of Hashem-who has a plan and account for every single person living in the world today rather a yid or not orca Bnei yishmael etc…..May 15, 2022 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #2086751HaKatanParticipant
Great story.May 15, 2022 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2086886
I dont believe the story. Every yeshiva bochur applied for and received a 4D ( devinity student ) deferment.
During the physical he would have had to strip down to his underwear and he would have seen more than one doctor during the several hours the physical would have taken.
Lastly, a medical doctor couldn’t have given a ” crazy ” diagnose or a dishonorable discharge because of those 2 quesMay 15, 2022 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2086897
People were much less beurocratic back then…i believe the storyMay 15, 2022 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #2086918May 15, 2022 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2086926
Nice story but unlikely factual. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, most (but not all) yeshiva and divinity students continued to get draft deferrals even if they had a low number in the lottery. Other deferrals for married and college students were generally eliminated. The process would NOT have occurred the way you described. His pre-induction medical checkup did NOT include a mental health assessment component with the same doctor doing the physical and if the story occurred AFTER he had been inducted, he would NOT have retained his peyos etc.May 16, 2022 12:56 am at 12:56 am #2087015
I personally know a frum person who seriously raised his blood pressure via artificial means before reporting to the draft office. The doctor there disqualified him from serving due to his blood pressure being a severe health risk.May 16, 2022 7:09 am at 7:09 am #2087028
Ujm, maybe he ate a big portion of salty lox and herring: should do the trickMay 16, 2022 7:10 am at 7:10 am #2087042
Sorry to shoot holes in your story but the numbers don’t make sense either, unless you’re a young teen your great grandfather would not been draft age eligible for the Vietnam War, but don’t worry with some creative writing classes in college you have future in writing fiction.May 16, 2022 7:11 am at 7:11 am #2087043Jewish12345Participant
It’s a great story. You can’t argue with what happened you can argue that he doesn’t know what happened or was told over wrongily but a story is there it’s facts no way to change that.
It’s possible to be ok and not have hung with women and watched movies bh be knew how to answer and was saved but even he didn’t know how to answer it is possible that he just didn’t get busy with girls and movies I know many people like that and this is these days in 2022!May 16, 2022 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2087093
Ujm, that’s another untrue folklore story, despite whar your friend told you Because it was easy to fake , people with high blood pressure were routinely held over for a few days , under observation, to see if the pressure stayed up. In addition, they were subject to rexamination in the future .
I requested a physical in the early 70’s because I knew I would fail because of my eyes and a skin rash. At the final station, I was told that I failed, but just for my vision. The doctor said he did me a favor by leaving off the rash. If left on, the Army would keep calling me in to see if the rash was better. Since vision generally doesn’t improve, I’d never hear from the Army again if I failed for only vision. He was right.May 16, 2022 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2087105MenachemFivenbirmbaumParticipant
sameMay 16, 2022 10:43 am at 10:43 am #2087141BerishParticipant
That sounds like a duplicate story on youtube from Rabbi JJ Hecht.100% the same story but WWII.May 16, 2022 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2087157
AJ: I know it first hand from him. It is absolutely 100% true and accurate. He raised his blood pressure and he was deemed ineligible to serve as a result of “poor health” based on his blood pressure.
Perhaps some draft offices were tougher. But the one he went to dismissed him.May 16, 2022 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2087164
Then, of course, there are stories about those young men in the vietnam war era whose sense of patriotism pushed them to pursue every possible avenue of military service but were denied the opportunity because of life-threatening conditions such as bonespurs.May 16, 2022 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2087300
Ujm, it’s also possible he failed for a reason he chose not to share , but simply said it was high blood pressure .May 16, 2022 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2087356
AJ: I know this person the same way you know your child. It absolutely was due to his blood pressure. There were no other issues.May 17, 2022 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #2087622
You never know even from direct testimony. One of the amoraim lost ability to have children from r Hunas long lectures without bathroom access, but maintained publicly that he already fulfilled the mitzvah.May 17, 2022 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2087679
AAQ: He already fulfilled the mitzvah of “asher yatzar”? Sounds a bit like a medical bubba meisa.May 18, 2022 1:09 am at 1:09 am #2087997tunaisafish613Participant
Hecht you’ve been exposed!
To watch the story first hand search “Fabrengen 5 teves Didan Notzach, Rabbi J.J. Hecht , 5747” on youtube.May 18, 2022 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2088085☕️coffee addictParticipant
GH did you read aaq’s post?
Read it again, this time slooooowlyMay 18, 2022 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2088087
My neighbor told me that his great uncle’s housekeeper son avoided the draft by eating a case of tuna to induce mercury poisoning, he felt this was the best way to avoid the draft because tuna is a fish.May 18, 2022 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #2088303
Gadol, Gemora discusses that some would stay at the lecture and delay going to urinate leading to later problems. I don’t think it mentions what aspect is the problem. Modern medicine seems to be of the same opinion. I’ll spare you multitude of references not to delay your trip to the bathroomMay 18, 2022 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2088306
All these tuna-eating yidden, do you know whose daas Torah were they following?May 19, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2088446
I think you mean they have to ask dag TorahMay 19, 2022 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2088493
@AAQ, the real issue is what is the true Jewish fish, Tuna, Herring or Lox?May 19, 2022 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2088555
CS: Gefilte Fish, of course.May 19, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2088563May 19, 2022 9:31 am at 9:31 am #2088575tunaisafishParticipant
Tuna is the only fish and any other fish falls under the category of tuna.May 19, 2022 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2088701
CS: I’m partisan to Faltche Fish.
You seem to have a case of double-postitisMay 19, 2022 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2088872
My question still stands, jokes aside – who gave a heksher for this fishy behavior. I am not paskening whether one can or should get exempted from Nam, just asking who did. This might depend on whether one believes in domino theory, which seems to be back in vogue latelyMay 20, 2022 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #2089002zfriendlyParticipant
I am part of that Viet Nam generation & quite a few of my “frum” friends who didn’t have parents with influence & money found themselves on Saigon one sunny day. I had a 4D & subsequently reclassified 1A due to screw-up by the draft dodging Yeshiva on Albany ave. I was already married & I told my dad she & I were running to Canada. My daddy arranged two things for me; Smicha & a fake job as an assistant rabbi in a shul Well there was a lottery which never reached my number So here I am in my 70’s & people I mean those my childrens age find it hilarious & hard to believe.May 20, 2022 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #2089012
Glad to have a witness here. So, what was halachic advice at the time on what and how go through these things? If yeshivas were helping in some way, what was the basis for that?May 20, 2022 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #2089039
“If yeshivas were helping in some way, what was the basis for that?”
Pekuach Nefesh. A Yid is prohibited from serving in a gentile army if doing so risks his life. He’s required take whatever possible steps (refusing to serve, draft fishing, moving to Canada, fake exemption, etc) to avoid putting himself in a sakanas nefoshos situation, such as enlisting in the army 0May 20, 2022 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #2089058n0mesorahParticipant
Jewish boys in WWII ran to enlist after Pearl Harbor.May 20, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2089147GadolHadofiParticipant
Harav Yaakov Moshe Kulefsky, zt”l, was drafted into the U.S. Army in August, 1944 at the age of eighteen. Despite learning in yeshiva at the time, he was drafted due to a backlash against those who falsely claimed to be doing so. Instead of refusing to serve or moving to Canada, he walked to the Induction Center in Manhattan on the day he was ordered to do so, which happened to be Shabbos. While he fortunately spent the next eighteen months until his discharge stateside, that wasn’t guaranteed or in his control and he could have just as easily been shipped out to the European or Pacific fronts.
He was not alone and there are plenty of books and articles about other frum boys who were drafted and served honorably, some of whom didn’t make it home.May 20, 2022 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #2089166
thanks for your psak. I presume a frum yid would not pasken it for himself. And asn0 says, there are possible differences here. Are there any written or oral or whispered teshuvos from that period? Also, interesting for WW2 generation.May 21, 2022 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2089189GefilteFishParticipant
In his autobiography “Lieutenant Birnbaum”, Meyer describes going to Rav Hutner zatza”l to get a divinity exemption for the WWII draft since he was scared to go fight in Europe.
Rav Hutner zatza”l told Meyer that since the exemptions were only for full time study, and he was only in yeshiva part time, he (Rav Hutner) couldn’t give Meyer an exemption.
Rav Hutner explained that it would be a massive chillul hashem if the goyim found out that they were going to fight the “jew war” as they called it, while the Jews themselves were fraudulently avoiding the fight.
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