April 15, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #602921
Does anyone know the source of where it says that a resident of Eretz Yisroel should not permanently move out of Eretz Yisroel, at risk of a curse.
I think there is a problem of even temporarily leaving EY without a very strong justification. My recollection is that it says one who leaves EY for business or income, will not be met with success.April 15, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #867811147Participant
Do not move out of Eretzb Yisroel, so close to Yom ha’Atzmaut & then Yom Yerusholayim.April 15, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #867812
Hahaha. In Israel I lived from a very low income for the last couple of years. My wife didn’t find a job since we got married, for several years. We had huge, growing debts and were unable to pay off loans we had to take. We were getting close to bankruptcy.
Then we moved, and guess what?
I earn about twice of what I earned in E”Y, my wife found a great job as well, and we’re managing nicely now, including paying off the loans (including a 13,000 NIS loan we had to take to be able to move). In about 18 months from now, we’ll be out of our debts!
Also my career had a great boost, and my mental health is also improving.
And you say moving out of E”Y is a ‘curse’? Well, not for me!April 15, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #867813
And I may add, that I have known many others who fled Israel after getting stuck in severe financial trouble, and managed to build up their lives again in their previous countries.April 15, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #867814Yosi7Member
Theres a gemorah in kesubos (110b)that says “someone who lives in chutz laaretz is like they have no G-d”. BUt when the rambam quotes the gemorah he quotes it as “Someone who LEAVES eretz yisroel is like they have not G-d”.The rambam had the same girsa as the shita mekubetzes. The rosh in moed katan says that one is never allowed to leave eretz yisroel to tour. THe mishnah brura (531:14) says that one is allowed to leave eretz yisorel to perform a mitzvah.
Look at the sefer Whats bothering Rashi 159-161 Parshas behar. I found my info there.April 15, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #867815nitpickerParticipant
forget about curses. think halacha. ask lor.April 15, 2012 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #867816
Moving out is against halacha?April 15, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #867817yeshivaguy45Participant
The Gemara says that you shouldn’t leave E”Y but nowadays we’re in galus it might be different ask your rav.April 15, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #867818
The source is the second paragraph in the shema said daily. In this prayer PLAGARIZED FROM THE TORAH, a righteous person will find economic sustenance and a wicked person will not fnd economic sustenance. Amazingly the shema does not say anything about having children or having the world say what a wonderful torah scholar you are. Rav Kook would give a parable on the beloved garden of G-d beng like a girl that was embarrassed to go out with a guy so she put on an old dress and messed up her hair so the guy wuld say that he does not think that she was suitable without realizing that it was a put on. In the same manner ANYONE that does not find ANYTHING in the beloved garden is defacto stating that G-d cannot provide him or her with whatever the given individual wants. I strongly recomend the readers to either the Jewish Idea part 2 by Rav Kahane or “Torah and Zionism?? by an anonomous writerApril 15, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #867819
Kahane was a fool. As are those who follow him. They have absolutely nothing to do with Torah Judaism.April 16, 2012 3:41 am at 3:41 am #867820cheftzeMember
TCG: +1 on Kahane.April 16, 2012 6:38 am at 6:38 am #867821haifagirlParticipant
Very rarely does a day go by that I am not overwhelmed with how privileged I am to be living here. Every day I thank Hashem that He brought me to this Land. I can’t imagine why anybody would want to leave.April 16, 2012 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #867822adamsParticipant
I was like Gatesheader, I moved for finanical considerations. After many years and many ups and downs, (it always starts up), I would rather that I had stayed there. and now i run there for a few days whenever i can. Many of my friends there, managed as well if not better than myself, they were just patient and got into good businesses and trades, debt I have here as well, lack of Mazal i had here as well. There is something positive about the when you leave aside all the stupid politics the view of seeing a Shabbos observed in so much of Yerushalayim, in the holy land is just not a scene i have ever seen replicated wadr, in monsey, boro park etc.
You either feel it there or you dont’ it can’t be argued about.
Having said that sure, it can be good to leave there for a few years.April 16, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #867823
Haifagirl: It is not that they want to leave. It is like Rav Kook said which I quoted above. G-d dresses himself up so to speak in a bad hairdoo and a worn out dress so that the the given individual will say yuck and vomit himself or herself out. All you can do is have pity on sucha person. Again you may find my book “Torah and Zionism interesting or you may enjoy “The Jewish Idea Volume 2” by rav Kahane. In all fairness I did not know why I moved here until I read his book and he gave my hart wordsApril 16, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #867824popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I’m glad your financial situation improved after leaving Eretz yisroel. But, I find your tone and attitude pretty disturbing.April 16, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #867825Avi KParticipant
It is even prohibited to leave temporarily for a non-mitzva purpose such as a tiyul (Mishna Berura 531:14).According to the Chesed leAvraham (Maayan 13 Nahar 12)says that if someone is not a tzaddik the Land must vomit him out. Unfortunately, the Sin of the Spies is still with us (Kol haTor 5:2) despite the fact that Israel has one of the streongest economies in the world and half the unemployment rate of the US.April 16, 2012 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #867826
Please pay attention the next time you say the Shema to the second paragraph. You do not need an obscure source to know that a sinner will be vomited out. But then again it does NOT say and again I say does NOT say that a sinner cannot TEMPORARILY visit the beloved garden of G-d. And who is to say that we are righteous tsaddikkim???? Yes we wear the right clothes and use the right jargon but what are we in the eyes of G-d????April 16, 2012 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #867827ItcheSrulikMember
popa: Don’t worry about his tone. I’ve noticed that one of the specifically Jewish yetzer haras in our generation is to badmouth Jewish things. Just like secular Jews like to tell jokes about gefilte fish and laugh about “classless” Jewish cooking, many frum Jews like to talk bad about Israel. It’s just cultural.April 16, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #867828Avi KParticipant
Marvafan, the Chesed leAvraham also learns the opposite: that a person who succeeds in EY must be a tzaddik evn if he does not seem so.April 16, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #867829
Don’t confuse Israel with Eretz Yisroel. They are two different things.April 16, 2012 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #867830Josh31Participant
From time to time some of the 10 Meraglim gain access to this coffeeroom.April 16, 2012 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #867831sam4321Participant
PBA: I agree with you,one of the worst sins is saying lashon hara on Eretz Yisrael.April 17, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #867833takahmamashParticipant
And you say moving out of E”Y is a ‘curse’? Well, not for me!
And how many mitzvot do you miss out on now that you moved away?April 17, 2012 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #867834jdbParticipant
Moving to and from EY are topics to be discussed with one’s family and rabbanic leadership. I know people who had to leave due to financial hardship, but BH since moving here last summer we have had our share of good mazel from HKBH – I landed with a solid job, have better sedarim outside of work, and the yeshiva situation thus far appears to be fantastic and a fraction of the price.April 17, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #867835AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
The Chassidishe Gatesheader…
You say “Kahane was a fool”?!? You obviously never spoke to him in person or you would never make such a horrible remark. Rav Kahane ztzvk”l was ahead of his time! And name calling a Jew who died al kidush Hash-m (whether you agreed with his hashkafos or not)?!?!? You should go to his kever to ask mechila.
To answer the original question posed…
The Chazon Ish in his Mitzvos haTeluyos ba’Aretz states that one may leave Eretz Yisrael for a business trip, to get a shidduch, and for a few other short term reasons, BUT it has to be only TEMPORARY. He concludes with ??? ?????? ?? ???? – to SETTLE (i.e. permanently) in chutz la’Aretz is FORBIDDEN.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.