Mrs. Husband Name

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  • #606552

    Chulent
    Member

    What is the reason a wife is formally known as Mrs. Chaim Cohen? (IOW, Mrs. Husband Name.) Aside from this being the formal title of a wife, it is probably most commonly seen when wedding invitations are sent out and addressed to “Mr. & Mrs. Chaim Cohen”. (Note that the wife’s first name is omitted.)

    As a side point, I was also wondering about the introduction of the Choson and Kallah when they first come into the reception hall after the Chupa. Someone will announce “We welcome for the very first time… Mr. & Mrs. Chaim Cohen!” Does the “minhag” of this public introduction of the groom and bride come from secular weddings? Cause as I understand that is how the couples are introduced at gentile weddings.

    #909638

    iced
    Member

    Misses means wife of. So Mr. Chaim Cohen’s wife is called Mrs. Chaim Cohen.

    #909639

    WIY
    Member

    Chulent

    Yes the announcing is likely a “goyishe zach” as well as all the music intros which are taken straight from non Jewish music rock and roll…

    Proposing is also not a Jewish thing. Maybe you can find someone to make a list of all the things we took from the non Jewish wotld….

    #909640

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I plan to keep my maiden name if I continue to be professionally active, but my married name in all other ways.

    You’ve brought up a topic that feminists won’t like. I personally have no problem with it. Then again, I am not a feminist.

    #909641

    haifagirl
    Participant

    “We welcome for the very first time… Mr. & Mrs. Chaim Cohen!”

    You can be sure, if I ever get married, that won’t happen. I find that introduction quite annoying.

    #909642

    anonymrs
    Participant

    most of our invitations say “mr. and mrs. yyy and xxx lastname”….

    #909643

    Wisey
    Participant

    The announcing itself I find quite goyish and disgusting but the “Mr. and Mrs. Chaim Cohen” seems like a tznius way to avoid calling a married woman by her first name.

    #909644

    Poster
    Member

    In terms of mail, I think it’s done that way bec it is easier.

    #909645

    iced
    Member

    It has long been considered proper etiquette in society to refer to a wife as Mrs. Chaim Cohen.

    #909646

    akuperma
    Participant

    It’s the way the English and Americans do things, and in their countries it is useful to follow their minhagim. Traditionally, Ashkenazi Jews didn’t have surnames, and both men and women always went by their patronymic (Piloni/Pilonis Ben/Bat Piloni). At this point almost all rabbanim have adopted the custom, so it is mutar (similar to males wearing pants, which once were a goyish minhag, but eventually were adopted and now almost all rabbanim wear them).

    #909647

    The little I know
    Participant

    If the bills bear his name, should not the invitations?

    #909648

    Bubby B
    Participant

    I do not see what is wrong with letters or invitations being addressed to Mr.& Mrs. that is how it is in the world we live in, or introducing a new couple, “for the first time as Mr.&Mrs.”, on the contrary it is a celebratory message, if anyone would make an issue, I think it would be more with the Hebrew/Yiddish referral on the invitation “Uriso”, which to me sounds much more like the woman being the shlep along (pardon me if I am wrong, I do not know where or why this began, or if has any Halachic source. For that matter I think Mar & Maras sounds better than “uriso”, if indeed some feel it’s a lack of tznius to mention the woman’s name, though I don’t understand it. In Tanach numerous women’s names are mentioned. Do our invitations have to be holier than the Tanach?? Please note also a friend/relative of “Mrs.” who knows her more than the husband may not even realize who the invitation is from – especially with a name like Cohen, and having the woman’s first name might clarify the experience for some.

    #909649

    farrocks
    Member

    I think it would be more with the Hebrew/Yiddish referral on the invitation “Uriso”, which to me sounds much more like the woman being the shlep along (pardon me if I am wrong, I do not know where or why this began, or if has any Halachic source. For that matter I think Mar & Maras sounds better than “uriso”, if indeed some feel it’s a lack of tznius to mention the woman’s name, though I don’t understand it.

    Uriso (after her husband’s name) is the proper Jewish way to refer to a wife.

    Which is why, for example, Chasuna invitations utilize that language.

    #909650

    computer777
    Member

    Uriso (after her husband’s name) is the proper Jewish way to refer to a wife.

    What makes it proper? Can you bring a source?

    #909651

    oomis
    Participant

    I am with Bubby B. I agree with her entire post

    I have no problem with the expression “u’ra-ah-yaso” per se, but the chosson and kallah were not born in a vacuum. There is nothing inherently untznisudig in mentioning the mothers’ names. IMO in this specific isntance, it is only untzniusdig if you THINK it to be so, and I think we are going a little overboard in this, when we talk about a simple invitation (whioch does not even have a picture of the wife on it), which clearly comes from both the father AND the mother. Just my opinion. Please do not shoot the messenger.

    #909652

    iced
    Member

    Oomis: What did you print on your children’s invitations for the parent’s names? How about your own wedding invitation?

    #909653

    farrocks
    Member

    As a geder for tznius, many people will not call their wife by her first name when non-immediate family members are in the vicinity.

    #909654

    yehudayona
    Participant

    farrocks, what do they call their wives in such situations?

    #909655

    farrocks
    Member

    My Rov zt’l, an tzadik and old time European Rov, used to call her as “herr nur”.

    #909656

    JustLogic
    Member

    You’ll get over it…

    #909657

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Farrock – I just found out why my parents call each other Abba and Mommy.

    #909658

    farrocks
    Member

    The idea is anything but new.

    #909659

    yehudayona
    Participant

    torah613, please ask them what they called each other before they had children.

    #909660

    JustHavingFun
    Participant

    It’s more awkward when the wife is a professional and her hubby is not: Mr. & Dr. Chaim Cohen (as I’ve seen too often) is plain wrong.

    Should be Mr. Chaim and Dr. Chaya Cohen or Mr. Chaim Cohen and Dr. Chaya Levy. Or what about just Chaim and Chaya?

    #909661

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Women should not be seen, heard, nor spoken about.

    #909662

    Englishman
    Member

    JHF: It should still remain Reb Chaim Cohen Uriso (or Mr. & Mrs. Chaim Cohen, if in English.)

    #909663

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It should still remain Reb Chaim Cohen Uriso

    What if I’m not a Kohen or my last name is Uriso? :p

    The Wolf

    #909664

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    many people will not call their wife by her first name when non-immediate family members are in the vicinity.

    Heck, I once had someone try to convince me that it was wrong to call my wife by her first name even when we were alone.

    No, I didn’t listen to him.

    The Wolf

    #909665

    interjection
    Participant

    “Mr. & Dr. Chaim Cohen (as I’ve seen too often) is plain wrong.”

    I am sorry that you find it strange.

    #909666

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Women should not be seen, heard, nor spoken about.

    None the less, you are a sight for sore eyes! (Although Ittisa says she hears from you now & then).

    #909667

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    farrocks, what do they call their wives in such situations?

    I was going to add, but this is a family site. I’ll just keep quiet.

    #909668

    crdle
    Member

    It’s Uraa’yaso, not uriso!??????, which means in Hebrew ( not yiddish) his wife!

    #909669

    dolphina
    Member

    Women (aka non-males) are an urban legend. They don’t exist. So all you males (aka non-females) can go back to learning or working or drinking tea or whatever you do, and stop worrying about what women wear or if they do or should drive, or if you can say their names, or if you can shake their hands or talk to them, or if they should go outside. They don’t exist. These discussions are all narishkeit and bitul torah. Moving on…..

    #909671

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW, I took a long break from here. I found it wasn’t good for my opinion of Yeshivish people. Luckily, I know some awesome Yeshivish people in real life.

    #909672

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    SJSinNYC – Real yeshivish people don’t post here. It’s mostly impersonators out to make them look bad. And doing well, I must say, but the opposition doesn’t come out too impressive either. I used to go nuts, now I try to pity them and move on.

    Been choosing my real life friends more selectively too and life has certainly improved.

    (musser zogger not excluded)

    #909673

    farrocks
    Member

    Been choosing my real life friends more selectively too and life has certainly improved.

    Been dumping friends that don’t measure up?

    #909674

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I didn’t say SORTING THROUGH, I said choosing.

    #909675

    JustHavingFun
    Participant

    I am sorry that you find it strange.

    Thank you for your sympathy, “interjection.” as a professional editor and all around perfect person, I know what all styles should be. And I know what Wolfish Musings should have called his wife in private instead of her first name. But – moving on – she is not Dr. Chaim Cohen. Sheesh. You’d think a yid would give a poor muddle-headed female some credit for going to med school. All them difficult words to scribble on teeny pieces of paper. And sick people! Yuck! I’d rather stick with contaminated keyboards and missssplleded werdz.

    Now for something completely different:

    My first name is really ??????!

    #909676

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I know Syag, real Yeshivish people wouldn’t have internet or would ONLY use it for work. But sometimes, its hard to separate.

    #909677

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    why did that long post get approved before my teeny tiny one?

    Because it was on the first page.

    #1721927

    Joseph
    Participant

    Daf ahl Daf (Berachos 27b): In Minhag Yisroel Torah (O.C. 240:1) he notes that the Minhagei Maharil states, “That when Mahari Segel spoke about his wife with other he would say in German, ‘Mein hoiz frau’ (my house wife) as we see in Shabbos (118b) that he never called his wife ‘my wife’ but rather said ‘my home’). Rashi there says it was because she was the principle member of the home. When he would call her he would say in German ‘hert ihr nit’, which is the accepted practice in the world that husband and wife don’t mention their spouses name.” This that the Maharil did not say “my wife” when speaking in the presence of others or use her name, see Magid Ta’aluma, “Regarding Berachos (27b) where R’ Eliezar ben Azarya said, ‘I will go and consult with the members of my household’ and he went and consulted with his wife. This informs us that it is not correct to mention his wife’s name before others and therefore he referred to as “my household” when he meant his wife.” However this that the Maharil was careful not to call his wife at all by her name, see Redak (Lech Lecha) who notes the change in description. For Avraham it says, Your name will no longer be called Avraham while for Sarah it says, “You should no longer call her name Sarai.” That is because a man calls his wife by her name but the wife doesn’t call her husband by his name but rather in a respectful manner that reflects authority. (See Toldos Kol Aryeh who brings many sources for this).

    #1721957

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shabbos (118b): R’ Yossi said, I have never called my wife “my wife” or my ox “my ox”, but rather I called my wife “my home” and my ox “ I called “my field.”

    Rashi (Gittin 52a): I called my wife my home – that is because all the necessities of the home are done through her and thus she is the main entity of the home. Similarly the ox is the main part of the field.

    Meiri (Shabbos 118b): A person should always use refined language. An example is that one talmid chachom said, “I never call my wife “my wife” nor my ox “my ox”. Rather I call my wife “my home” and my ox “my field.”

    Daf ahl Daf (Shabbos 118b): … The reason why he always referred to his wife as “my home” is because all the honor of the woman is to be inside (Tehilim 45) and it is not the manner for a woman to go out of the house. Therefore she is the principle member of the home and that is why he called her “my home.”

    #1723371

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Well, I tried to convince my wife to go by Mrs. Husband Name.

    She refused.

    She pointed out that my first name isn’t “Husband” and my last name isn’t “Name.”

    I couldn’t really argue against that…

    The Wolf

    #1723531

    akuperma
    Participant

    “Mrs.” followed by husbands name reflected the husband higher legal status, e.g. if he was an duke, she was a duchess only by virtue of being married to him. Such titles, along with a woman adopting her husbands surname, reflect usage among the Christians in general, and the British in particular. Traditionally, Jewish women did not adopt a husband’s name but were known as “Pilonis bas Piloni” where “Piloni” was her patronymic (her father’s name). In the 19th century the governments made us adopt their form of names in order to make it easiet to tax and conscript us.

    #1723552

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As several others have noted, its entirely up to the woman as to how she wishes to be referenced since its NOT an inyan of halacha. Many frum young women who continue their professional careers after a chasanah will continue to go keep their own names for work but use their husband’s name in certain matters (e.g. wedding invitations, birth announcements etc.) for reasons of shalom bayis or to avoid offending their machatonim. Whatever works is fine.

    #1723568

    Joseph
    Participant

    GHD: Why do you suppose that it might enhance the Shalom Bayis to use the traditional Mrs. Husband rather than her own name?

    #1723579

    shteig
    Participant

    Not uriso, or uraáyaso, but veraáyaso.
    Curious as to how you were pronouncing it, though.
    On another note, if I am not mistaken the women-folk on Rav Moshe Feinstein’s wedding invitation were named and not “vera’ayaso”-ed.

    #1723602

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Why do you suppose that it might enhance the Shalom Bayis to use the traditional Mrs. Husband rather than her own name?”

    For the same reason that in some families, the wife uses a hyphenated surname, or the husband is comfortable with the couple being listed separately as Ms. XYZ along with his listing as Mr. ABC on invitations, shul announcements, etc. In some cases, in a second marriage with children, a woman remarrying may want to keep the same surname she went by in a prior marriage or revert to her maiden name or whatever. The point is simply that people come into marriages with very different circumstances and different issues of importance to them and particularly on matters that are not strictly dictated by Halacha, they may be able to find compromises on lesser matters they allow both to come away feeling respected. If the format of the surname is such a big issue to the husband or wife, he/she may decide its an indicator of even bigger conflicts in the future and that maybe they are not well matched.

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