October 24, 2021 8:37 am at 8:37 am #2020030
Music?October 24, 2021 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2020058
It’s better to do a whole year without music. But if one isn’t strong enough they should only listen to Yiddish music.October 24, 2021 9:56 am at 9:56 am #2020085Yabia OmerParticipant
Yiddish as in Jewish or Yiddish language?October 24, 2021 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2020091rightwriterParticipant
Who is UJM?October 24, 2021 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2020089
these days the frum chareidi singers are doing such beat-y music.
is it ok?October 24, 2021 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2020099
YO: Jewish.October 24, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2020175
I think it really depends on where the listener is holding. I wouldn’t stress the yiddishe taam, or lack thereof, to my students who are knowledgeable of the latest rappers and their respective crimes. I would mention it to my children, but not push it, because I think it’s one of the “pick your battles” issues. I don’t think listening to modernishe Jewish singers is a major contributing factor in the causation of defection from Torah. People often listen to music that they identify with, so I think it might be more of a symptom than anything else.October 24, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2020176
Also, ujm, I don’t know of any talmidei chachamim in America who are makpid on that psak of Rav Moshe. The rema allows music in siman 560 as long as it’s not during a seudah, and Rav Belsky held that the rema’s issur is only when it’s the kind of meal in which wine is served. Many restaurants are meikil with this even further, and while the hagaos mordechai would allow it, this seems to be a minority shitah – I’d apply ujm’s reasoning more to this case, where the halachik rationale is questionable, but if one needs it they have what to rely on.October 24, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2020177
Haghaos on the mordechai**October 24, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2020178lowerourtuition11210Participant
Maivin please explain your question. you just ask “music”? what about it?October 24, 2021 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #2020230
I don’t think listening to modernishe Jewish singers is a major contributing factor in the causation of defection from Torah….
Quite to the contrary. So called “moderinishe” jewish music probably has kept some frum kids from going OTD. In my generation, Carlebach’s concerts were considered borderline apikorsus. There is a spectrum of what might today be considered “modernishe” music from the MBDs Avram Frieds , Shumulel Lemmersetc, towards the Lipa Shmeltzers and Matisyahus to some rappers whose stuff is really hard to take for more than a few minutes. However, forcing today’s kids to listen or classical chazzanus might be considered the equivalent of forcing goiyeshe teens to listen to Barry Manilow and Frank Sinatra. (Some may even recall when the Baltimore police installed speakers at locations known for drug-dealing and played 24×7 Manilow and Wayne Newton to discourage dealers from congregating)October 24, 2021 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #2020246Yabia OmerParticipant
I prefer the music of R’ Yehuda Halevi, R’ Shlomo ibn Gevirol and R’ Yisroel NajaraOctober 24, 2021 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2020255NoveltyParticipant
Music has tremendous koiches. It is a powerful spiritual force, hence the reason that music plays such as a massive role in Yiddishkeit. From the Beis Hamikdash to the Shabbos seudos, music plays a major role. From what I’ve learned, the Heichal Haneginah is one of the highest heichals in shamayim, and for that reason, one is really playing with fire when he listens to non-Jewish music. Non-Jewish music takes it’s koach from tumadiga forces.October 24, 2021 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2020252Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
YO, we have the text, but do you have the notes?October 24, 2021 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2020280
Gadol – I think that’s going too far; I don’t think the fringe singers are saving neshomos with their….”music”. I think listening to such music and worse (i still would not put lipa, who is a shomer shabbos, together with the porek ohl Matisyahu) is a symptom of a teen’s emotional pain and angst. When I hear music like that, it hurts me, and makes me feel down, so I’m guessing if someone feels that way anyway, it serves to validate their feelings. I agree that it might hold them back at least temporarily from listening to non jewish music, which can have a draw to all sorts of anti Torah concepts and behaviors.October 25, 2021 12:46 am at 12:46 am #2020361Naftush-2Participant
Turn to leyning — the only authentically Jewish music.October 25, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2020648
I enjoy country music. A lot of country songs are inspiring, talk about hard work, raw emotion, good values, responsibility, good manners, etc.
Waiting for the קנאי to pounce on me with an outstretched sword.. Avira?October 25, 2021 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2020665NoveltyParticipant
“I shed a tear in my beer for crying for you dear” is very inspiring…October 25, 2021 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #2020668
Shimon: What yiddeshe taam is there in a genre of music wherein every song seems to be a riff on “the love of my life ran off with another woman and stole our only tractor and prize cow”October 25, 2021 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2020673
Shimon, I only hope you’re not as proud of your shortcomings in oerson as you are anonymously online….i should hope it hasn’t become “neeseis llo keheter” ,or “neeseis lo kimitzvah” in the words of the kotzker
Acher became an apikores partially because of Greek songs, which I’m sure he found some good qualities in….he was a tanna qnd a tzadik at that point. Chazal say there and in other places to avoid non-jewish music.
I know of one gadol beyisroel who plays classical, instrumental nusic for his wife. I myself enjoy instrumental music…some hold it’s not correct, but I use it for my nerves; I think there’s a good enough heter for it.October 25, 2021 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2020676
I don’t know what gave anyone the idea that I’m out to insult or belittle anyone here – I speak about beliefs, practices, etc… I don’t believe I’ve condemned a particular person (besides public figures)October 25, 2021 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #2020699
I have absolutely no idea which country songs you chevra have been listening to..
There are many many great country songs that aren’t about women or oso ish. It’s not even difficult to find. Kosher veyosher you might call it.
Avira, you decided that all songs are like ‘Greek music’ or did you hear from an adam gadol? Learn something before you up teitch a deep agadata
I listen to it because it is simply good quality music. I listen to mostly Jewish songs, but that doesn’t exclude other kosher music. And I’m sure you all already know how much treif music there is in the Jewish entertainment industry. No where is there a halacha that says the definitive factor is that the singer must have a bris. Of course, strict halacha would dissuade all music legamreiOctober 26, 2021 1:42 am at 1:42 am #2020723
Can a “jewish” song have a not jewish tunes? e.g. bas kol, hashem melech Ext.October 26, 2021 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2020875
Good question. Do both the writer of the lyrics and the music artist need to have a bris? What if he’s an Arab? These are the deep questions we need to be asking. (Never mind the quality of music though. Shweky is amazing!)October 26, 2021 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #2020951
Music is an expression of the neshoma. Goyim have a neshoma that’s mitzad the sitra achraOctober 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2020975mserenParticipant
I love how so many frum people think that all non-Jewish music is about vulgarity.
Or that college is full of professors who only care about turning you into an atheist.
Or that the Internet is simply bursting with shmutz.
Or that your average “goy” cannot be trusted and actually secretly hates Jews.
The list goes on and on, sadly.
That is how cults keep their followers in check, by convincing you that the entire outside world is a completely dark, scary place.
If you truly believe in any of the above, you aren’t practicing Judaism, you’re following a cult.October 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2020977
Avira, did you interview every goy? You really don’t see how childish that sounds, to say every goy’s song is from the sitra achra.
Maybe stick with citrus, not sitra. Hey, that can be a song. Someone tell Benny FriedmanOctober 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2020995
I will admit something that I should have mentioned before.
Although I see no issue with the music I listen to, I wouldn’t recommend anyone who is learning full time to listen to country music. This is not because of the actual songs, but because it is a distraction. Torah requires complete focus and immersion. And that applies to most of today’s Jewish music too.October 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2021000
With the advent of computers, a growing portion of ALL music (including what is referenced here as ‘yiddeshe” music is derived from riffs on prior songs and melodies versus something that has organically evolved from someone “hearing” a nigun in their mind, sitting down at a piano and putting notes to that melody. I won’t argue whether computers have “neshamas” but most of the top Jewish musicians will acknowledge their work has some roots in prior work.October 26, 2021 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #2021060
Shimon, it’s just a fact that the Arizal makes clear in aitz chaim, quoted in many other seforim, notably the first perek of tanya. Goyim have neshomos that have “no tzad tov klal”, and are entirely from the sitra achra.
Not my vort or my evaluation.October 26, 2021 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2021142
I’d have to see it myself because I literally do not believe you. I could quote a thousand gemaras that show the complete opposite. Today’s daf in RH says פושעי אומות העולם go to gan eden. Please give me the exact mareh makom you are quotingOctober 26, 2021 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2021143
Agav, I am not one of those harrys who is overly concerned about goyim. יכלו ויאבדו במהרה
I just don’t think you’re saying the emesOctober 27, 2021 12:17 am at 12:17 am #2021205
it is important to note that even if a goy is a good goy, you are connecting to to the etzem of a goy wich is not what a yidishe neshomah should be connecting to too,October 27, 2021 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2021224
A good goy is an oxymoron.October 27, 2021 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2021235maskildoreshParticipant
Avira is educated, intelligent , informed and thoughtful. He almost never takes bait, and rarely rants, he responds respectfully. [Passion and ranting are different.] His Torah quotes are accurate, and he doesn’t shoot from the hip. Surprisingly for the coffee room , he is actually NUANCED. I find him impressive.
Kol HaKavodOctober 27, 2021 6:36 am at 6:36 am #2021242
No problem shimon – here it is; end of perek 1 in Tanya, includes source where to find it in aitz chaim from the Arizal.
משא”כ נפשות אומות עובדי גלולים הן משאר קליפות טמאות שאין בהן טוב כלל כמ”ש בע”ח שער מ”ט פ”ג וכל טיבו דעבדין האומות עובדי גלולים לגרמייהו עבדין וכדאיתא בגמרא ע”פ וחסד לאומים חטאת שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות עובדי גלולים עושין אינן אלא להתייהרOctober 27, 2021 6:43 am at 6:43 am #2021248
ujm what? what about that goy from Shanghai who saved the mir yeshivah and countless others who saved jewish lives while risking their own livesOctober 27, 2021 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2021246
Also, I don’t see any reference to poshei umos haolam going to gan eden at all…it says that they and poshei yisroel begufan sit in gehinnom for 12 months, then their bodies are destroyed and their neshomos are burnt, whereupon a wind blows their ashes hnder the feet of tzadikim…. What i see from here is to be very careful to wear tefilin properly and make sure to get them from a sofer yirei shomayim.October 27, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #2021390
@farbycoffee but legit all of these days jewish music is from Goyishe Tunes. ??October 27, 2021 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #2021410
According to the mareh makom you showed, it’s only the Tanya who is saying this. His quote from Eitz Chaim doesn’t back up his assertion (although I’m assuming he’s quoting it to further his point about their kavanos, not their nefashos).
Either way, it’s very shver. I don’t know anywhere else that says likewise.
Learn the gemara, it groups poshei umos haolam together with Yisrael. The burning and spreading of their ashes is their schar in gan eden.
Maskil, you haven’t been paying attention. He routinely misquotes or is outright בודה sources. Most of his hanachos are from his own svaraOctober 27, 2021 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2021483
Shimon; I understand whaly you see that in the gemara, and you got me thinking about it, but I think this conclusion is untenable in light of chazal and rishonim, as I will explain. The rambam below in melachim 8:11 is very clear that only goyim who are mekabel the 7 mitzvos have olam haba.
כל המקבל שבע מצות ונזהר לעשותן הרי זה מחסידי אומות העולם. ויש לו חלק לעולם הבא. והוא שיקבל אותן ויעשה אותן מפני שצוה בהן הקב”ה בתורה והודיענו על ידי משה רבינו שבני נח מקודם נצטוו בהן. אבל אם עשאן מפני הכרע הדעת אין זה גר תושב ואינו מחסידי אומות העולם ולא מחכמיהם:
There is a machlokes in sanhedrin 105 between rebbe Eliezer and rebbe yehoshua if even a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos has olam haba, and the rambam is paskening like rebbe yehoshua that they do. Interesting to note that shu”a paskens like rebbe Eliezer, because in hilchos gerim 268:2, where we tell the prosective ger once he has been accepted that –
ואומרים לו הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים והם ישראל
In light of this, the gemara in rosh hashana seems to be going like rebbe yehoshua – but rebbe yehoshua only grants olam haba to goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos! How then can poshei umos haolam have any gan eden?
My understanding is that the lashon of the gemara is very meduyak; it doesn’t say poshei akum, rather umos haolam – I think we’re talking about gerei toshav who accepted the mitzvos, but are sinners who have done bad things that do not include avodah zara; maybe they’ve eaten aiver min hachai, or other things. The same way a jew who sins occasionally has not forfeited olam haba, but rather one who routinely flouts halacha is included in poshei yisroel….poshei umos haolam may refer to a casual non-jewish sinner.
Also, logically, does it make sense that Hashem would take away the olam haba of a goy who generally does good but sometimes stumbles?
It would also be meduyak to put them together, because (i have to fet the mareh makom) a later chabad sefer writes that goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos have the same shoresh neshoma as a yid(not the same neshoma, just the shoresh), so it makes sense that the poshei yisroel and the non-jewish sinner will end up in a similar place.October 27, 2021 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2021489
Also Shimon, the tanya is not quoting the aitz chaim regarding their kavanos – i see why you read it that way, but the kavanah was a separate issue aside from the spiritual definition of the non-jewish neshoma. here is the quote from the aitz chaim directly, in shaar 49 perek 3
ונשמתן של הגוים הם מג’ קליפות רוח וענן ואש שכולם רע וכן הבהמות וחיות ועופות טמאיםOctober 27, 2021 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #2021563
Ok… you got me.
I have to admit that you’re maybe changing my mind a little. This is definitely news to me, that’s for sure. It requires more iyun. It appears though that not every goy has a nefesh from the klipos. שגיות מי יביןOctober 27, 2021 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2021656
Avira just some clarification, when you say olam haba are you using the rambams definiton or the rambans?October 27, 2021 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2021658
@maivin i personally try to be makbid about music. i dont listen to macabeets, lipa or any song i know has a goishe tune. Most of the big wigs in the market make new tunes.October 27, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2021735
MBD also used goyishe tunes.October 28, 2021 8:55 am at 8:55 am #2021795
Farby, i don’t think it makes a difference; unless you can find a ramban that paskens like rebbe Eliezer, goyim have olam hava, mar kedi’is lay umar kedi’is layOctober 31, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2022934
“Avira, did you interview every goy? You really don’t see how childish that sounds, to say every goy’s song is from the sitra achra.”
No, I disagree with avira on 73% of things but I have to agree with him. How would a goy know what tuma his song is coming from. music is an art, art depict a persons feelings and lifestyle to an extent. there was a labelling company that sued a singer for making a song similar to another song he made under their company. the judge ruled that since a persons music displays his beliefs and moods therefore it makes sense that they sound similar and its not copyright. what I’m trying to say is that goyim leads a lifestyle that is not kosher for a yid therefore their art which displays them is not kosher for a ben Avraham v’Yitzchak v’Yaankov.
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