Music?

Yiddish as in Jewish or Yiddish language?

I think it really depends on where the listener is holding. I wouldn’t stress the yiddishe taam, or lack thereof, to my students who are knowledgeable of the latest rappers and their respective crimes. I would mention it to my children, but not push it, because I think it’s one of the “pick your battles” issues. I don’t think listening to modernishe Jewish singers is a major contributing factor in the causation of defection from Torah. People often listen to music that they identify with, so I think it might be more of a symptom than anything else.

Haghaos on the mordechai**

I don’t think listening to modernishe Jewish singers is a major contributing factor in the causation of defection from Torah….

Quite to the contrary. So called “moderinishe” jewish music probably has kept some frum kids from going OTD. In my generation, Carlebach’s concerts were considered borderline apikorsus. There is a spectrum of what might today be considered “modernishe” music from the MBDs Avram Frieds , Shumulel Lemmersetc, towards the Lipa Shmeltzers and Matisyahus to some rappers whose stuff is really hard to take for more than a few minutes. However, forcing today’s kids to listen or classical chazzanus might be considered the equivalent of forcing goiyeshe teens to listen to Barry Manilow and Frank Sinatra. (Some may even recall when the Baltimore police installed speakers at locations known for drug-dealing and played 24×7 Manilow and Wayne Newton to discourage dealers from congregating)

Music has tremendous koiches. It is a powerful spiritual force, hence the reason that music plays such as a massive role in Yiddishkeit. From the Beis Hamikdash to the Shabbos seudos, music plays a major role. From what I’ve learned, the Heichal Haneginah is one of the highest heichals in shamayim, and for that reason, one is really playing with fire when he listens to non-Jewish music. Non-Jewish music takes it’s koach from tumadiga forces.

Gadol – I think that’s going too far; I don’t think the fringe singers are saving neshomos with their….”music”. I think listening to such music and worse (i still would not put lipa, who is a shomer shabbos, together with the porek ohl Matisyahu) is a symptom of a teen’s emotional pain and angst. When I hear music like that, it hurts me, and makes me feel down, so I’m guessing if someone feels that way anyway, it serves to validate their feelings. I agree that it might hold them back at least temporarily from listening to non jewish music, which can have a draw to all sorts of anti Torah concepts and behaviors.

I enjoy country music. A lot of country songs are inspiring, talk about hard work, raw emotion, good values, responsibility, good manners, etc.
Waiting for the קנאי to pounce on me with an outstretched sword.. Avira?

Shimon: What yiddeshe taam is there in a genre of music wherein every song seems to be a riff on “the love of my life ran off with another woman and stole our only tractor and prize cow”

I don’t know what gave anyone the idea that I’m out to insult or belittle anyone here – I speak about beliefs, practices, etc… I don’t believe I’ve condemned a particular person (besides public figures)

Can a “jewish” song have a not jewish tunes? e.g. bas kol, hashem melech Ext.

Music is an expression of the neshoma. Goyim have a neshoma that’s mitzad the sitra achra

Avira, did you interview every goy? You really don’t see how childish that sounds, to say every goy’s song is from the sitra achra.
Maybe stick with citrus, not sitra. Hey, that can be a song. Someone tell Benny Friedman

With the advent of computers, a growing portion of ALL music (including what is referenced here as ‘yiddeshe” music is derived from riffs on prior songs and melodies versus something that has organically evolved from someone “hearing” a nigun in their mind, sitting down at a piano and putting notes to that melody. I won’t argue whether computers have “neshamas” but most of the top Jewish musicians will acknowledge their work has some roots in prior work.

I’d have to see it myself because I literally do not believe you. I could quote a thousand gemaras that show the complete opposite. Today’s daf in RH says פושעי אומות העולם go to gan eden. Please give me the exact mareh makom you are quoting

it is important to note that even if a goy is a good goy, you are connecting to to the etzem of a goy wich is not what a yidishe neshomah should be connecting to too,

Avira is educated, intelligent , informed and thoughtful. He almost never takes bait, and rarely rants, he responds respectfully. [Passion and ranting are different.] His Torah quotes are accurate, and he doesn’t shoot from the hip. Surprisingly for the coffee room , he is actually NUANCED. I find him impressive.

Kol HaKavod

ujm what? what about that goy from Shanghai who saved the mir yeshivah and countless others who saved jewish lives while risking their own lives

Shimon; I understand whaly you see that in the gemara, and you got me thinking about it, but I think this conclusion is untenable in light of chazal and rishonim, as I will explain. The rambam below in melachim 8:11 is very clear that only goyim who are mekabel the 7 mitzvos have olam haba.

כל המקבל שבע מצות ונזהר לעשותן הרי זה מחסידי אומות העולם. ויש לו חלק לעולם הבא. והוא שיקבל אותן ויעשה אותן מפני שצוה בהן הקב”ה בתורה והודיענו על ידי משה רבינו שבני נח מקודם נצטוו בהן. אבל אם עשאן מפני הכרע הדעת אין זה גר תושב ואינו מחסידי אומות העולם ולא מחכמיהם:

There is a machlokes in sanhedrin 105 between rebbe Eliezer and rebbe yehoshua if even a goy who keeps the 7 mitzvos has olam haba, and the rambam is paskening like rebbe yehoshua that they do. Interesting to note that shu”a paskens like rebbe Eliezer, because in hilchos gerim 268:2, where we tell the prosective ger once he has been accepted that –

ואומרים לו הוי יודע שהעולם הבא אינו צפון אלא לצדיקים והם ישראל

In light of this, the gemara in rosh hashana seems to be going like rebbe yehoshua – but rebbe yehoshua only grants olam haba to goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos! How then can poshei umos haolam have any gan eden?

My understanding is that the lashon of the gemara is very meduyak; it doesn’t say poshei akum, rather umos haolam – I think we’re talking about gerei toshav who accepted the mitzvos, but are sinners who have done bad things that do not include avodah zara; maybe they’ve eaten aiver min hachai, or other things. The same way a jew who sins occasionally has not forfeited olam haba, but rather one who routinely flouts halacha is included in poshei yisroel….poshei umos haolam may refer to a casual non-jewish sinner.

Also, logically, does it make sense that Hashem would take away the olam haba of a goy who generally does good but sometimes stumbles?

It would also be meduyak to put them together, because (i have to fet the mareh makom) a later chabad sefer writes that goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos have the same shoresh neshoma as a yid(not the same neshoma, just the shoresh), so it makes sense that the poshei yisroel and the non-jewish sinner will end up in a similar place.

Ok… you got me.

I have to admit that you’re maybe changing my mind a little. This is definitely news to me, that’s for sure. It requires more iyun. It appears though that not every goy has a nefesh from the klipos. שגיות מי יבין

@maivin i personally try to be makbid about music. i dont listen to macabeets, lipa or any song i know has a goishe tune. Most of the big wigs in the market make new tunes.

Farby, i don’t think it makes a difference; unless you can find a ramban that paskens like rebbe Eliezer, goyim have olam hava, mar kedi’is lay umar kedi’is lay