July 5, 2019 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1753055
we all aspire to be good yidden and would never dream of going into a store without paying. Yet when it comes to music we are all guilty of this big avera. Jewish Singers are not rich rich celebs like non jewish singers, They too have kids, credit card bills and tuition fees. Making albums is their parnassa. So why do we copy music, us or our kids … on telegram, hangouts, its all online and all gets copied, and the singers don’t make any money off this. so why is stealing from ehrliche jewish singers like Beri Webber, Ungar or Shwekey permitted????July 5, 2019 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1753108
Where does it say in Shulchan Aruch that there’s such a thing in Halacha as non-tangible intellectual property?
If you quote a contemporary posek saying so and I quote a contemporary posek saying fakert, will you similarly say just as you follow a posek that permits shaving therefore by my quoting gedolei poskim forbidding shaving is not binding on you, on the same token if you don’t copy per your posek you’re okay with my copying per my posek?July 5, 2019 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1753115
Better question: Who in their right minds would make a cd KNOWING it will get stolen? It seems like a dumb business idea, no?July 5, 2019 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1753116
are you asking from a halacha standpoint or from a yashrus perspective ?July 5, 2019 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1753136
It’s a divided issue among poskim. Aderet music used to put this really bizarre “contract” in their CD cases that basically states “This is not your CD, this CD and all of its contents belong to Aderet and you are a renter. If you copy anything from the CD the rental agreement is annulled and the CD must be returned”.
Nowadays, the music industry has learned to live and cope with piracy. There may be nothing technically wrong with pirated music, halachically (again, big machlokes poskim) speaking. So they make their music readily available and easy to get to for anyone who has the Internet and a credit card.July 5, 2019 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1753148
Just Another YidParticipant
Joseph, you are implying that I am allowed to steal nontangible intellectual property. is that right? what does shaving have to so with it? How did you answer the question? what’s your therefore? so many questions…July 6, 2019 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1753137
“Where does it say in Shulchan Aruch that there’s such a thing in Halacha as non-tangible intellectual property?”
I guess Reb Joey is now the poster child for the proposition that there is no such thing as “intellectual property”….after all, when he needed brain surgery, he refused to pay the “intellectual property premium” quoted by the brain surgeon he initially contacted to perform the procedure and instead got a much better price from the shamas in his beis bedrash who performed the surgery for him at 1/10th the price.July 7, 2019 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1753316
Very sad and I’m currently in a state of mourning to be living in such a dishonest and corrupt generation. Perhaps you can comfort me. It would be greatly appreciated for the sake of my life and health.
Awaiting for klal Yisroel to come together for serious teshuva before we can expect mashiach to come.July 7, 2019 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1753385
The little I knowParticipant
The singer or musician who publishes a CD knows that this is not a profitable venture. Ask around among those musicians you may know. Just how much monetary investment goes into the making of a CD. Now, calculate that against the projected income. My friends, it’s not even close. From the business angle, it’s a huge loss.
Why do they do this? There are new CD’s coming out constantly. It’s a gamble, and it is an expensive form of advertising. The popularity that is expected from the release, even if the music gets copied, translates into being hired for weddings, concerts, etc. That’s where the money is. Think of it as a business card, except that you are not buying a box of 1000 for $15.July 7, 2019 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1753398
For the last few centuries, halacha developed “Haseges gevul” as a form of copyright, which along with Dina Malchusa Dina makes “stealing” music against halacha. Also when the music is initially sold the buyer agrees not to redistribute it (same if one goes to a concert and makes a private recording, contrary to the terms and conditions of the ticket).
And BTW, the vast majority of the goyim in the performing arts are anything but rich.July 7, 2019 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1753399
I thought you would ask why are yidin copying non Jewish music & calling it jewish aren’t we Ehrlich? Much of today’s chareidi music are borrowed pieces of non Jewish techno beats. Some of it are direct copies of non Jewish songs. What happened to us? I saw a music video of a Chusid dancing like an African American to heavy disco, what does this mean?
I’ll need to start a new thread for this question.July 7, 2019 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1753474
what are you talking about?
Do you think a brain surgeon has a sole right to perform a specific surgery. and anyone who performs the same surgery has stolen from him?
Otherwise what is the connection?
“Also when the music is initially sold the buyer agrees not to redistribute it”
The problem though (As with the aderes clause mentioned above) is what if I violate it. Ok I violated the term of the sale, normally that means that the sale is void. do you think my local music store would accept that return “Here I feel terrible but I violated the terms of the sale and made a copy here is the cd back, can I please have my money, again I’m sorry”
What do you imagine the store saying ?July 7, 2019 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1753488
YOU STOLE MY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
I’ve been saying that for years. That the contract is a joke from a halachic angle due to your statement.
If anything it actually allows one to copy it, as they are limiting their rights to what they wrote, and they clearly do not intend to keep to it (ie by giving back your money if you violate it.)
Therefore there is nothing telling you not to copy and disseminating it!July 7, 2019 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1753529
According to my Rov there is no such thing as renting the CD from the seller, I’ve never signed any rental agreement, therefore the seller cannot tell me what to do with a thing that I’ve paid for,
Though it’s still mind boggling how anyone in their right mind would release any music,July 7, 2019 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1753550
Once the music is released the Artist knows that it will be pirated and copies and put on you tube, and steamed and downloaded from a million different places online.
Is this the same as the owner being meyayish or giving up on ownership rights?July 7, 2019 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1753574
Even had the language of that “contract” been binding it would only have been a violation to make the first copy (and even then only be the original purchaser). Additional copies (or copies by someone other than the purchaser) wouldn’t violate any contract.July 7, 2019 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1753580
Old Crown HeightsParticipant
If I share someone’s music without permission could that be considered loshon hara? (and if the music is bad motzei shem ra?)
Personally I buy about 10 Jewish CDs a year from a store in Boro Park. It makes me happy to support the new singers and bands. Many are absolutely first rate. The music scene is more than doing their part to unite the larger Jewish community.July 7, 2019 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1753607
Spotify is almost the same as piracy, but legal.July 7, 2019 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1753548
There is little evidence that copying causes any harm to the producer.July 7, 2019 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1753724
“Spotify is almost the same as piracy, but legal.“
Don’t the musicians get royalties from the song when Spotify plays it?July 7, 2019 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1753727
There is little evidence that stealing causes any loss to the victimJuly 7, 2019 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1753730
The musicians technically get royalties through Spotify, but very little.
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