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Is it appropriate to play music in a store? (Even the best?)
I was once in a kosher supermarket, and they were playing music during sefirah (or three weeks, I forget).
I asked a manager about it, and he told me that the cashiers and baggers work faster when the music is on.
Yes I once worked in a playgroup during the 3 weeks/sefira and they played music for the kids. I thought it was strange, but I assume they asked a sheila
coz,
yeah thats a common heter, “for the kids”
Right, without music the cashiers would sit there and not do anything. Because their training is scan the items while the music plays. Reminds me of when I was strolling with the famous Pavlov and we walked past a kirche. The bells began tolling and he stopped, slapped his forehead and cried out – I forgot to feed my dogs!
There are many studies that show that workers work better with background music. And it’s B’feirush in Poskim that if the music is to help you work, it is Muttar.
Yes, Sam; although it did seem odd, I thought it was a valid reason.
???????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????????
????????? ????? ??????????.
Is the music really for the workers? The average jewish supermarket employs way more non jews than jews. If it was for the workers, they wouldnt play mbd, fried and schwecky (etc).
apushatayid, what you post is proof that what passes for “Jewish Music” today, is no different than the non-Jewish rock/rap/punk/yaba-daba-doo rubbush.
“There are many studies that show that workers work better with background music.”
There is a Gemara about that towards the end of Sotah 48a.
From Soncino:
“R. Huna said: The singing of sailors and ploughmen is permitted, but that of weavers is prohibited.(37)”
“(37) Singing helps the former in their work, but with the latter it is done out of frivolity.”
That’s true for a lot, but not all, Jewish music. A huge difference, though, is the lyrics, and the issue of kol isha.
I can handle having Shwekey playing while I shop during the three weeks or sefirah, but I would be put off by Rosenberg’s* Supermarket playing music off of the radio.
According to halacha, if music is for the workers, then because of the churban it is assur. But marketing says music will make the experience better for the shoppers. Therefore, according to halacha it is muttar.
yeshivadan,
What is the source for the halacha you stated? It seems to contradict the Gemara in Sotah. And Rav Huna was definitely after the Churban.
Yeshivadan, see ??? ?????, that if it’s ????? ???????, it’s okay.
There is a difference in ???? between the 3 weeks and S’fira. During S’fira music is only asur if it brings you to ????.
Brisker Rov: It’s so nice that you are able to make Halachic distinctions between Minhagim.
Sam2: “There are many studies that show that workers work better with background music. “
Its so nice that you are able to distinguish between different types of work. This is misleading, there are also studies that show music is VERY detrimental to work then it requires concentration. So while it might help with pysicial work, it certainly does not help with work that requires concentration.
Reb Sam, open a mishnah berura or any halachik sefer of your choice. The halacha is I have stated. Beyond that there arevmany minhagim.
Brisker Rov: You will not find any source Assering music during Sefirah or the 3 weeks before the Pri Chadash. The Mishnah Berurah quotes this Pri Chadash. The general Mehalach in Rov Poskim is to treat Sefirah and the 3 weeks the same. Contemporary Chassidish Halachah Seforim make some Chilukim. The reason this is very Sasum in the Poskim is because they are all working under the assumption of OC 560:3. When people started listening to music all year round, Minhagim developed as to how to treat music during Sefirah and the 3 weeks. This point is all Talui on Minhag. There is no “Halachah” about it because, on a simple level, Halachah says all music is Assur all year round.
What is “yaba-daba-doo” music?
(Flintstones, meet the Flintstones…)
1yo thread
Wait what?!
Sam2 said “, on a simple level, Halachah says all music is Assur all year round.”
Halachically speaking, no one is ever allowed to listen to any music?
Please tell me how I’m misunderstanding this post.
LB,this is a huge subject with many differing opinions as to where exactly it applies. Basically, after the Temple’s destruction, The Rabbis forbade singing, playing, and listening to music. However, what is the subject of dispute is where and when this applies. Some of the applicable cases are parties with wine, or music while falling asleep or as you wake up.I think that’s why the post you referred to said “on a simple level”. There is so much commentary on this gemara, that it is hardly applicable in practice.
Like many things, if you are concerned speak to a competent, understanding Rabbi or Rebbetzin.
Wow! I’ve never never never never never never never heard of this.
I’ve heard of kol isha. That in itself seems to say that listening to instrumental music and a man’s voice is permissible.
My LOS had music playing at a simcha.*
Wait.. is music different than a live band? Do you mean recorded music? (Or did they not have that back in the day anyway?)
*The music playing at my LOS that I was referring to was a live band.
I’m pretty sure that I’ve heard music played at another holiday at my LOS. I know rabbis who play in bands or have a relative in a band. My LOR sings on Shabbos.
Is it offensive to ask a rabbi or rebbetzin who I know listens to music, plays music, and/or sings be offensive?
Was this part of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai’s deal with the Romans to keep the now-Jewish people at bay from making any scenes? Or do sources say that he initially just called for a temporary period of solemn, like we do during the 3 weeks?
Thank you Geordie613 🙂
I’m on hold right now. On a phone call.
If this company was frum, does that mean that I would be spared of this elevator music?
Updated: Thank you G-d! This phone call was a blessing. Thank you thank you thank you. Mamash.
LB, there are many reasons why this law is not applicable. I don’t know details myself, but I would say that it’s definitely not offensive to ask a Rabbi or Rebbetzin, as your intention is clearly to learn and understand.
I don’t think it has anything to do with Rabi Yochanan ben Zakai’s deal with the Romans.
LB- My understanding is that while technically all music should be forbidden year round, the poskim today allow it since most people are not capable of never listening to music plus listening to Jewish music can bring people to Dveykus (closeness) to Hashem. I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein may have a teshuva to this effect.
My understanding also is that the reason we don’t listen to music during the 3 weeks is because we really aren’t supposed to listen to music year round, but we are not holding by that, but at least during the 3 weeks, we shouldn’t listen to music.
Personally, I have a hard time not listening to music even during the 3 weeks and sefira, so I asked a sheilah and I was told that I am allowed to. I do try to avoid it during the 9 days at least if I can. I also try to stick to Acapella. I think there are Rabbanim who differentiate between acapella and regular music and there are Rabbanim who differentiate between live music and not-live music.
But, as Geordie said, you should ask your own sheilah to someone who knows you.
LB – it is very rare to hear of anyone nowadays who doesn’t listen to music at all. That is why you never heard of it. I think I may know one Rav who doesn’t listen to music at all, but I’m not even sure about him.
The halacha is different for Simchas. I don’t think anyone says you can’t have music at a chasuna. It’s only in Yerushalayim that there may be a problem with having a band at a chasuna. Some people deliberately make weddings outside Yerushalayim to avoid the problem, some say the problem is only in certain parts of Yerushalayim and I think some might say it depends on the size of the band.
Your Rav or Rebbetzin won’t be offended if you ask. Just about everyone today listens to music and there are reasons why it’s allowed, so no one would feel bad about it. They are not doing anything wrong, so there is no reason for them to feel bad. But it is very sweet and sensitive of you to ask!
“I don’t think it has anything to do with Rabi Yochanan ben Zakai’s deal with the Romans.”
I think it was one of the decrees made in order to remember the Churban. Like not wearing all your jewelry at once, and leaving a part of your wall unplastered, etc.
LU: I’ve never heard of the not wearing all your jewelry at once thing.
Unless someone has one pair of earrings, one bracelet, one necklace, and one ring, that seems like a difficult thing to do. Maybe we’re more blessed today to have an abundance of jewelry (in a wide range of affordable price points… even those 25-cent rings at the grocery store may count).
Thank you for enlightening me on this 🙂
I really like the leaving portion of one’s wall unplastered. It helps to put life in perspective.
What’s interesting is that if this was true: No music or singing or playing allowed at all, how would anyone know what music was?
We know what a wall looks like, and can visualize what it may be to have it complete. We make a conscious effort to leave part of it alone.
Someone may think to wear all of one’s jewelry. She can picture it, but refrains from putting it all on at one time. It’s a conscious effort where she must choose which to wear and which to leave at home (or a safe deposit box, etc).
As for music, if someone was born in a world without it, would that person know that something was missing?
Banging on pots and pans or glasses as a child would only amount to racket.
One would grow out of that stage and have no clue that with a beat, those sounds could have been lovely?
Or is music inherent? Built into us. A rhythm that one eventually finds. It can bring joy. Soothe sorrow. In a world without any song, any tune, any melody –Would we know what we’re missing?
Wouldn’t it be beyond our comprehension? It’s not the same as never knowing treif. That at least we can see. It’s tangible.
Music, singing, playing… would be beyond our reality.
“What’s interesting is that if this was true: No music or singing or playing allowed at all, how would anyone know what music was?”
There are a lot of goyim in the world. Also Jews who are tinok shenishba or off the derech. Even if we weren’t allowed to listen to music, you couldn’t help hearing it on the busses and in the stores and coming from your goyish neighbors’ houses.
Also, I think it was always allowed at chasunas, etc.
And, I think you can miss something even if you don’t know what you are missing. Like we are missing something because we don’t have the Bais HaMikdash even if we don’t realize what it is that we are missing. People turn to drugs and alcohol and other such things because they are missing something in their lives (love, Torah, connection to others and to Hashem) and they never had it so they don’t know what it is that they are missing, but they know they are missing something.
I think live music is only assur in Jerusalem, but since not everyone holds by that, it really cannot be enforced
LU 100% Great Point!
Yes you can miss something without being able to know what you’re missing.
ZD: Ah! Really?
A couple weeks ago, I recorded live music with a DJ and dancing at a Jerusalem Bar Mitzvah. It was happening outside a falafel place before going down the steps to the Kotel.
Dunno if they got lucky that day, it’s not strictly enforced, or something else.
ZD – I think that originally there was a takana that no one could listen to music anywhere (chasunas, etc may have been an exception), but the Poskim allow it since we are too emotionally weak nowadays and couldn’t survive without music. I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva about it.
There is a separate takana about live music in Yerushalayim even at a chasuna. As far as I know everyone holds by it, but there are different opinions regarding the details (what exactly counts as part of Yerushalayim? Can you have a one-man band? etc.)
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