- This topic has 17 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I was born and raised in a very yeshivish litvish family and learned in very yeshivish litvish yeshivas. The approach that i was taught as to how to face aveiros and yiddishkiet in general was very much mussar oriented. It was all about gehenoim and fighting your taivos so you could stay away from gehenoim and chap arien olam haba. It was also about how great i am if i win the fight over my yetzer hara, and even if i fail a lot, for every time that i win, the malachim in shamayim are dancing. As much as i believed in this mehalach, IT NEVER WORKED. I always did aveiros, i struggled with davening and learning, and i felt i was seriously lacking in my avodas hashem. The mussar ideas in my head kept telling me to “keep fighting” and never give up. But eventually even though i said i wasn’t giving up, inside i really was. Then i discovered chassidus. I am not a buki in it yet by any stretch, but from the drop that i started dabbling in it, it is working wonders for me. I stopped viewing god as a judge in the sky who throws bad people into gehenoim and good people into gan eden. I now view god as my personal creator who loves and cares for me. Instead of fighting my taivos i turn to god and ask him to help me do his ratzon for me. And he listens. I am shtieging in every single area in yiddishkiet now. I am able to daven and learn much more and much better than i used to. i feel a real connection to hashem now. I am a happy person. With all this happiness also came a feeling of disappointment that i had to wait until i was in my 30’s to find what works for me. I wish i would have been exposed to all this at a much younger age. I always knew that chassidim existed but i looked at them as strange people who missed the boat. I was taught in yeshiva that chassidim don’t really have the real yiddishkiet. Now i know that it is the litvaks who don’t really have the real yiddishkiet. Maybe we can start teaching chassidus a little bit in the litvish yeshivas. Even if we won’t teach everyone that it’s the right mehalach, at least they should know that there is another mehalach out there that they can try if the litvish mehalach is not working for them.
No yeshivas advocate thinking of Hashem as the big bully or mafia boss in the sky. The other way is equally dangerous- thinking of Hashem as your zeidei in the sky who only loves you and never punishes.
“Instead of fighting my taivos i turn to god and ask him to help me do his ratzon for me.”
You need to do both- if you only ask Hashem and dont fight it wont work. And if you only fight and dont ask Hashem for help it wont work.
Anyone who says they got somewhere big in ruchnius without extreme effort and fighting is LYING.
What didn’t work for you has worked for others.
Undoubtedly, some people do better with one mehalech, and others with a different one. There are stories the other way as well. To conclude that “Now i know that it is the litvaks who don’t really have the real yiddishkiet” is ludicrous.
Zev7: But what if the Litvaks hold that there isn’t real substance in the Chassidish Mehalach? There are many Christians who feel very close to God, but we don’t teach Christianity as a viable alternative. If they hold there are inherent major flaws in Chassidus, why on earth would they teach it?
everything is so blended nowdays, there are no true chassidim or litvaks. there is some of everything in the yeshivos.
Sam2: Because the litvaks hold that you need to do all the mitzvos and not do aveiros
that’s not true, i heard a vort that ratzah hkbh lzachos es yisrael lifichach hirbah lahem torah umitzvos means, just do one mitzvah completely
we also hold yeish konam olamo bshaah achas
@Zev7: And it’s a chassidishe idea that if it will overall help your avodas hashem if you let up on the fight and focus on how hashem loves you- that you should do that? I am going to assume that you were never really exposed to a solid, comprehensive derech in mussar- either that or you missed the boat of what your rebbeim were telling you.
The main point is that the chassidishe mehalach was a major change and innovation in the mesorah and mehalach in avodas hashem. A change that the Gra amongst others felt was invalid and wrong. Again, the Gra felt it was WRONG. Not a machlokes that we say eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chayim. Some people have suggested that the Gra didn’t really have SUCH a problem with Chassidus in general and he was really just against the Baal Hatanya and the Lubavitcher chassidus, but everyone agrees that he was at least not a fan of the genral mehalach of Chassidus. That is the origin of the Litvishe world’s aversion to Chassidus and I don’t think there have really been any gedolim that have changed on this.
Zev7: Ashrecha that you have found a Mehalech that works for you.
Yofutzu Myonosecha Chutza!
BTW which specific sefer/chassidus is it?
cchocker
That is the origin of the Litvishe world’s aversion to Chassidus and I don’t think there have really been any gedolim that have changed on this.
Just knocking off a large group of many generations of Klal yisroel with one brush stroke.
I don’t think there have really been any gedolim that have changed on this.
I disagree. I think Litvishe gedolim came to the realization that Chassidus has withstood the test of time.
Dear Zev7,
Well, in this thread you have found your confirmation. The elitist Litvish world has always held steadfastly that their way is THE WAY, and there is no other.Here you have shown that there is another way, and it is no less legitimate. And there are still other legitimate ways.
One of my Roshei Yeshiva used to say “Stay away from those who think that the truth lies only with them.” Keep this in mind as you grow in yiddishkeit,as there are some chassidim who are unfortunately no less elitist than their litvish counterparts. Aleh v’hatzlach, v’sheyirbu kamocha b’yisrael.
As an aside, regurgitating the Gaon’s objections to chassidus by some here is highly distressing. For a good history of the debate,read Wilenski’s two volume work, consisting of the correspondences between the chassidim and misnagdim in the late 1700s into the 1800s. It is an absolute festival of sinas chinam, and not for the faint-hearted. Let’s be thankful we are past that, and let’s keep ourselves past it.
So let me pose the following challenge to anyone here: ask a respected litvishe Talmud Chacham- who doesn’t have chassidishe leanings- if we say eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chayim with regards to the Chassidishe mehalach. I did, and the answer is, at best, not very clear. It doesn’t mean that Chassidim are bad people. For the most part they are scrupulous in Halachah, following their mesorah and work on their middos and even, nowadays, learn a lot of Torah. But with regards to the specific differences and unique focuses they have- Chassidus- the litvishe Gedolim seem to feel that they are off the mark.
The OP makes it clear why the Mussar approach did not work for him – he never understood what mussar is about.
As noted by other posters, mussar is not about “Hashem throwing wicked people in to Gehinnom and righteous people in to Gan Eden.”
Mussar is not about our conception of HKBH at all. Of course, the Baalei Mussar agree to the idea that Hashem is “my personal Creator” Who loves and cares for me, as well as to the many other characterizations of Him given by Chazal. This, however, is not the subject matter of the Sifrei Mussar.
Mussar is about our conception of ourselves.
Mussar is about cultivating the ability to consider oneself objectively, and to measure one’s own conduct against the standard set by the Torah in an unbiased way, so as to develop one’s connection to HKBH through total adherence to Retzono Yisbarach.
In anticipation of the anti-Litvish crowd, I must point out that even in the most ardent Litvish communities, emotion and feelings are, of course, an important part of Avodas Hashem, and even of Limud Hamussar.
Chassidus, too, addresses man’s conception of self. The Sifrei Chassidus differ from the Sifrei Mussar in that they were not written specifically about this subject (at least, not in my limited experience).
From what I can tell, the difference between what we call “The Mussar Approach” and “Chassidus” is more a difference of form than of anything else, and has nothing to do with what the Vilna Gaon held was wrong.
In fact, it is not uncommon to find the Baalei Mussar and the Chassidishe Seforim expressing similar ideas, albeit in different words.
There is no question that each of these forms (as well as the many other strains of Torah Judaism that exist) resonate with some people more than others. There is no reason to denigrate any valid approach to Avodas Hashem.
cchocker – I must point out that Eilu v’Eilu etc. is always in an argument where one side holds the other is wrong. Consider, for example, the case of Tzaras Ervah, where each side held the other to be committing an Aveira.
Interestingly, Eilu v’Eilu etc. is actually stated in the Gemara in reference to where the normative halacha is decided in accordance with one side!
r avigdor miller put it like this: “there are two paths but the goal is the same”. do what works for you. but be aware that authentic chassidus is not aquired easily. also the gaon was called hachasid and was more ‘chassidish’ than most (all) chassidim alive today. But in general i agree with OP that the derech hachassidus should be introduced and taught in all yeshivos. As someone on the inside I can tell you there is a great emptiness there that chassidus can help fill. the ‘litvish’ will not admit it. its hard to admit that maybe you missed the boat your whole life so youll continue to rationalize it even though deep down you know theres something missing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.