September 25, 2011 1:56 am at 1:56 am #599596
If a couple married under Conservative or Reform (or other) auspicies prior to becoming frum, must they remarry? It seems Rav Moshe holds such marriages are invalid. (Which is how he holds their children of remarriages are not mamzeirim.)September 25, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #812733always runs with scissors fastParticipant
As far as I understand Yes, that is correct. As far as the couple needing to remarry according to Halacha. They will separate, and re do the whole process, and mikveh and everything.
But your reference to mamzeirim I think is incorrect. This is NOT an issue of mamzeirim at all. To my knowledge (which is very limited) I think a mamzer is only is a woman had a child of another man while she was halachically married.September 25, 2011 2:05 am at 2:05 am #812734Smick.Member
YesSeptember 25, 2011 2:39 am at 2:39 am #812735
always runs: Since non-Orthodox gitten (divorces) are invalid, IF non-Orthodox marriages were valid, and a woman got a non-Orthodox divorce and then remarried her subsequent children would c’v be mamzeirim. But Rav Moshe paskened that non-Orthodox marriages are NOT valid, so there is no mamzeirus issue.September 25, 2011 2:40 am at 2:40 am #812736
It depends. A Rabbi doesn’t make the Kiddushin. It is possible to have Kosher Kiddushin without a proper Rabbi presiding over it.September 25, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #812737
Sam: In that case, there well may be a mamzeirus issue upon a remarriage (since the get may be invalid.)September 25, 2011 3:08 am at 3:08 am #812738
Shmoel: I would agree. But far-be-it from me to call anyone a Mamzer. If R’ Moshe wanted to say that we assume there is no validity to these marriages at all to avoid Mamzeirus issues then of course that is the Halacha. I still have no idea why, in theory, what I said is incorrect (I don’t think it is). And I don’t know why we would make a couple remarry, unless it would just look strange to say that some of these marriages have no validity whatsoever and that others are fine.September 25, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #812739
Always runs…; You are correct.
Sam2; Your answer is partially right. A presiding rabbi is not critical for the marriage to be Halachically valid. But in the case of Reform marriage, the entire process is flawed from a Halachic standpoint. But it takes such a strong “Posek” as R. Moshe Feinstein z”l to legally invalidate the first (Reform) marriage when there is a need of wide-ranging impact. It is not for us lay people. Where the couple stays together, there is absolutely no change in the status of the children before, or after they remarried in an Orthodox ceremony.September 25, 2011 6:07 am at 6:07 am #812740
Heh. I was married as an Orthodox Jew and there are posters on these boards who feel my marriage is invalid because I didn’t use a shadchan. So go figure…
The WolfSeptember 25, 2011 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #812741deiyezoogerMember
The reason R’ Moshe says for invalidating Reform kiddushin is because the way they perform it. First the groom gives a ring to the bride and says “Harei at mekudeshes li” then the bride gives a ring to the groom and says “Ani l’dodi v’dodi li”. And since this is what they beleive finishes the kidushin proces (wife giving the ring, which of course is against halacha) the kidushin is not valid and there is no need for a divorce to remarry. However the Conservatives perform the kidushin according to halachah so there is a need for a halachadig valid divorce.September 25, 2011 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #812742
deyzigoor: Yet the Conservative gittin are invalid. So how are their remarriages for women not mamzeirim?September 25, 2011 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #812743lesschumrasParticipant
Ask a Rabbi!!September 25, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #812744
WolfishMusings; How you met your wife isn’t anyone’s concern. (Or it shouldn’t be.) The only people that might be mad at you are the shadchanim /(Iot) for possibly cheating them out of a fat commission. They might have given a deposit on that beautiful couch or they might have dreamed of a nice vacation, which they will now have to pay out of pocket.September 25, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #812745
Shmoel: As long as it was written by a Kosher Sofer with good Eidim then their Gittin should be okay as well.September 25, 2011 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #812746
How you met your wife isn’t anyone’s concern. (Or it shouldn’t be.)
I never said it should be otherwise. I was just expressing wonderment that people are worrying about Conservative and Reform marriages when we’re far too busy trying to nullify Orthodox marriages over matters that don’t affect the validity of the kiddushin one single iota.
The WolfSeptember 25, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #812747shlishiMember
C’mon, Wolf. There is only one poster (mr) who ever told you that, not “posters”. And that poster takes particular objection to *everything* (without discrimination) that, specifically, *you* do.September 25, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #812748
C’mon, Wolf. There is only one poster (mr) who ever told you that, not “posters”.
On reflection, I suppose that’s true. So that only makes it a matter of an error of magnitude, not of fact. My apologies on overstating the matter.
Nonetheless, do you think he thinks alone? I’m sure he must have a rebbe who believes as he does, as well as other like-minded people.
And that poster takes particular objection to *everything* (without discrimination) that, specifically, *you* do.
I don’t know that to be true.
The WolfSeptember 25, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #812749yaakov doeParticipant
Isn’t the problem the aidim?September 25, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #812750
wolfishMusings; You speak of “Like” minded people. In my book, they certainly are “Dislike”, or “Crooked” minded people. Nothwithstanding the fact that today we are staring Rosh Ha Shana in the face.September 25, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #812751avi eParticipant
What I have heard is that the problem is not just in the actual giving of the ring, but in the eidim. It is unlikely that there will be eidim at a Conservative or Reform wedding that will meet Orthodox standards. However, that doesn’t mean that they NEED to get remarried; they probably can continue living together the way they were before. What is the nafka mina of living together having had a Conservative wedding and living together having had an Orthodox wedding?September 25, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #812752ToiParticipant
yay!! gumballs!!!!September 25, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #812753PeacemakerMember
Avi: The nafka mina is that it is assur to live together without a valid halachic marriage.September 25, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #812754musser zogerParticipant
Yaakov is correct the main problem is Kosher shomer Torah umitzvos aidim. Wolf is also correct the double ring ceremony as somewhat problematic. Actually I believe this is a machlokes haposkim. As was stated Rav Moshe is matir a reform or conservative marriage. But Rav Eliyahu Henknin holds from the concept “Anan Sahadi” that means that if the couple are living together in the same house and shomrei TU”M know about it…this is sufficient to consider them married. As we are all witnesses that they are living together married.And would require a GET.September 25, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #812755PeacemakerMember
So Rav Henkin holds children of a woman’s reform/conservative remarriage are mamzeirim? (Since there was no valid gittin for her first marriage.)September 25, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #812756
Wolf is also correct the double ring ceremony as somewhat problematic.
While I don’t dispute your point, I do feel that I should point out that I said nothing of the sort.
The WolfSeptember 25, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #812757musser zogerParticipant
Peace: I think it depends if the couple lives where frum Yidden live, so they can be witnesses. A marriage must have Kosher aidim…at the wedding or after the fact.September 25, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #812758
WolfishMusings;(In your answer to Musser Zoger.) His (MZ) quote is correct. The attribution is wrong. I distinctly remember one of the posters brought up this point about the double ring ceremony. But it wasn’t you.
Sam2 (In your answer to Shmoel. (Paraphrasing)…If the Sofer is “Kosher” and the Eidim (Witnesses) are “Kosher”, the “Get”, even by a Reform or Conservative Bais Din is OK…:! I’m not so certain about that being the case. Due to the fact that the R and C don’t follow Halachic procedure with other, peripheral Halachos of a “Get”. For example, They might not be very meticulous in describing the proper, given and nicknames of the protagonists. Or, description of the exact Geographic location where the “Get” was issued. Surprisingly. There are many complex Halachos involving the Two items enumerated.September 27, 2011 4:08 am at 4:08 am #812759
WolfishMusings;(In your answer to Musser Zoger.) His (MZ) quote is correct. The attribution is wrong.
That’s fine. I wasn’t disputing that *someone* said it — I was just pointing out that I didn’t say anything of the type.
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