August 5, 2012 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #604438kfbParticipant
My friend who I was in yeshiva with for 5 years decided that was it for him. Oyy it’s so nebach, he had a lot of family issues but I thought he took care of them. He now moved to the upper west side and mamesh doesn’t even know what Shabbos is. We became frum together and had a real geshmakniss for yiddishkeit. It’s such a sad situation. He just let his family problems take over. Should I even try to help my poor friend?August 6, 2012 2:03 am at 2:03 am #891366shlishiMember
The UWS singles scene is bad bad news. I don’t know if the bigger problem is wanting to go there or the toxic influence it permeates on those there.August 6, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #891367
kfb -“Should I even try to help my poor friend?”
This must be very emotional for you, but before you invest time you must have a game plan. There are many issues going on with your friend. Does he even respect your opinion? Do you have any way to help him with his family problems? More likely than not, by the time he got to this stage, it’s too late. Can you get him into see s/o who deals with OTD people? Speak to an Odom Godol before you do anything.August 6, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #891368kfbParticipant
The problem is that my friend always had trouble with his family and I think he just lost it. It’s really really sad, I feel for him. He’s been very insecure lately and I just can’t even hang out with him. I’ve spoken to our rebbeim, but he blames all his troubles on the rabbis who helped him become frum. He just won’t admit he’s done anything wrong. It’s sucha nebach case.August 6, 2012 3:49 am at 3:49 am #891369CuriosityParticipant
Kfb, I know at least 3 such people. There was a time where it almost felt like I was the common factor of all of them, and I joked that I was making people go otd. These were really shtark guys who were some of the best learners I knew. It can happen to anyone, and there’s not too much we can do about it except consult with an “adam gadol”, as Health put it, and maybe just talk to the person and try to hang out with them to influence them to come back, or at least retain some shaychus to frumkite. For some people its a “phase”, for others its terminal. The most important thing is to realize that you are doing your hishtadlus and whatever happens, happens; its not in our control, and, while we mourn, we shouldn’t get depressed about it.August 6, 2012 6:41 am at 6:41 am #891370mom12Participant
I dont mean to discourage you..
but he will ask you where you were till now.
now that he did this drastic step you are here to help and give chizuk.
just so you can prepare for something that might happen.
but as u said you thought he took care of his issues..
I am not blaming you but these people always look and find someone else to blame.August 6, 2012 11:52 am at 11:52 am #891371morahmomParticipant
Even though you find it hard to “hang out” with him at this point, you should certainly try to maintain a kesher by calling or texting him to show that you’re thinking of him. There is a really strong possibility that he’s just had it with all the garbage going on in his family and he thinks that this change will solve the problems. Quite possibly, once he’s experienced that the grass was no greener on the UWS and the family problems were not solved, he’ll iy”H come back. But his friends showing they care is crucial.August 6, 2012 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #891372
I wonder if the UWS is the primary influence of people becoming less frum or if they’re disillusioned with life (meaning, before they actually move, their yiddishkeit and emunah have already become weaker) and then they go to the UWS to seek social comfort and peer support.
It is VERY hard to be more mature (age wise) and single in the frum community. There really is no chevra other than the UWS that can minimize their suffering and the feeling that others view them as having issues contributing to their taking longer to marry.August 6, 2012 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #891373TheGoqParticipant
Wow i had no idea the University of Wisconsin Superior was such a dangerous place.August 6, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #891374
mommamia22 -“I wonder if the UWS is the primary influence of people becoming less frum or if they’re disillusioned with life (meaning, before they actually move, their yiddishkeit and emunah have already become weaker) and then they go to the UWS to seek social comfort and peer support.”
Both. It’s a vicious circle/cycle. First they become disillusioned and then they follow the crowd.
“It is VERY hard to be more mature (age wise) and single in the frum community. There really is no chevra other than the UWS that can minimize their suffering and the feeling that others view them as having issues contributing to their taking longer to marry.”
Yes, another issue in the Frum community that’s been swept under the carpet. But I’ve heard Passiac is now a community with a lot of singles and it seems to be a Frummer crowd than the West Side.August 6, 2012 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #891375
There are plenty on people that are frum on the UWS and plenty that are not. It may not be the frummest place, but if he wanted to be frum there he would be.
I think that the bigger problem is your friend’s family problems. I get the impression that his becoming religious was, to some degree, looking for something to help him. And when that did not materialize, he became disillusioned. I had a friend like that – bad family situation, went to yeshiva. But at a certain point he did not get whatever he was looking for (emotionally or socially or whatever). His turning point was in yeshiva (I saw the apathy coming on), although he was still going with the flow while still there. After a few years he was totally OTD. I would guess your friend is similar.August 6, 2012 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #891376
I have a lot of friends who now live on the uws and within months of moving there thy stopped keeping shabbos and more. At my bridal shower a friend who I had not seen in a few months who had recently moved to the uws showed up in jeans and I was taken a back. I’m not judging she is still a great person in many ways, but something about the uws does change people, atleast that is my impression. I am talking about the single scene btw I have no experience with married life in the city.August 6, 2012 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #891377
I think that there is a lot of loshon horah said here about the Upper West Side. It is a vibrant place for many thousands of jews, there are shtieblech and mikves and there are places for every one. To say that by moving to the UWS, one sheds one’s religion is ridiculous. If anyone goes “off the derech’ it has more to do with someone’s own inclinations than with the UWS.
BTW- wearing jeans (to MorahRach) is not the worst thing to happen to someone,albeit it is a kulah that will not be acceptable in Boro park.August 6, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #891378RBS_gimmelParticipant
“doesn’t even know what Shabbos is”
experience has it that they DO know what Shabbos is, and all the learning/mitzvos they had before are still with them
the best thing for them (and you too) is to keep on being friendly to them, take them out to ice cream, etc.
often times when ppl go otd r”l it’s because they feel isolated. if you show them the true colors of a friendship, they’ll go back to being frum simply by osmosis
hatzlocha !August 6, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #891379
“I have a lot of friends who now live on the uws and within months of moving there thy stopped keeping shabbos and more.”
It’s been quite a while since I last visited there. I guess I knew the good people there, people that were sincerely frum. OTOH, I know that a lot of people living there are not really frum, but they just like the Jewish chevra. I agree with what Health said above when speaking about intentions when coming to the UWS “It’s a vicious circle/cycle. First they become disillusioned and then they follow the crowd.”August 6, 2012 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #891380
“At my bridal shower a friend who I had not seen in a few months who had recently moved to the uws showed up in jeans and I was taken a back.”
BTW, besides the problems of a lady wearing jeans in general, it seems to me that wearing jeans to bridal shower is tacky and disrespectful.August 6, 2012 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #891381
I didn’t say it was the worst thing in the world. Read my post. I said she is a great person. She is a very good friend but if you knew how frum she had been for years and years, you would atleast do a double take. Don’t make this tread into something it’s not. Maybe there are a lot of frum Jews on the uws, and that’s great! But every single one ( no exaggeration here) of my friends from HS and college that moved to the uws is no longer frum. I am personally still friends with them because a friendship does not disappear over night, the only things it really effects is when they want to go out and eat at places I cannot.August 6, 2012 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #891383
MR – The question is how Frum they were in the first place. It’s highly unlikely that they were really Frum. This occurs in the MO community more than others. Some raise their kids with sending them to Orthodox schools and colleges because it’s the social thing, but religion is Not really part of their lives.
Because otherwise the OTD rate would be a small %, not 100% of all those that moved to the West Side.August 6, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #891384
Lol. They were colorful jeans she looked lovely, they were not like ripped blue jeans. But I would agree otherwise.August 6, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #891385My other opinionMember
I am so sick and tired of ‘frum’ people bad mouthing singles who live on the uws. Yes, you can be frum AND live on the upper west side. Those of us who live there have minds of our own and think outside of the box. That does not mean that we are not frum. Have you tried being an older single living in a community with only families? Have you been in our shoes??? Try it. I dare you. You think you’re doing any singles any good by saying: “oh…. you live on the uws? Oh…”. Really. Grow up. Hashem loves every jew wherever they live. What you’re doing is actually anti yiddishkeit. You are taking an elitist attitude towards singles who are having a hard time as it is. It is just absolutely obnoxious. Do you know how much kiruv goes on on the uws? People who would never have exposure to yiddishkeit at all are going to classes, being exposed to judaism in a way in which they would never be exposed to it. You think they would feel comfortable in Monsey? Passaic? Kew Gardens? Get real. We are living in a modern world. You cannot just shut your eyes and pretend that modern singles are not suffering. Taking an uppity elitist attitude is NO answer. What you are doing is creating a divide between frum singles who live outside of the uws refusing to date people who live on the uws just based on the fact that they live there. It just makes me sick how ‘frum yidden’ can be so judgmental of other frum jews simply based on their place of residence. These singles are suffering, and you are simply making it worse for them by judging them in such a manner like this.August 6, 2012 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #891386YW userMember
Im sorry to hear that your friend went OTD while living in the West Side. I have spent many Shabbosim there and can proudly say that many singles attend shul functions and are very much a part of the community. The UWS has a close knit and surprisingly warm Orthodox community. If your friend is interested in becoming religious again there are opportunities in the UWS as well. But then again it seems that he’s not interested right nowAugust 6, 2012 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #891387
“It’s highly unlikely that they were really Frum. This occurs in the MO community more than others.”
What occurs in the MO community more than others??
That they were not really frum? That they send them to orthodox schools because it’s the social thing?
I’m surprised that you would say such a thing. It’s a blanket statement about an entire community that has no bearing on reality. With all due respect, you couldn’t possibly have known the MO community first hand if that’s what you think.
Within the MO community there are many different levels of yiddishkeit. Mainstream MO do not send to yeshiva because it’s the “in thing”. They send their kids to yeshiva as any frum family would to educate their kids in Torah and yiddishkeit. Just check out the Teaneck community and you’ll see what I mean. They have tons of yeshivas, shuls, shiurim, etc. Those families could’ve moved anywhere to fit in.August 6, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #891388
MorahRach- Sorry, I don’t buy it. you say “but every single one is not frum”. Sorry, I don’t buy it. I know the Upper West Side very well and although I don’t know everyone, I have never ,ever encountered the phenomenon that you describe. Do people who live on the West Side differ from Boro park and Flatbush? Absolutely-otherwise they would not have moved to the UWS,but I just do not believe hat there is a wholesale exodus from religion.August 7, 2012 12:08 am at 12:08 am #891389
“Morah Rach”(above) -please take that back – she did not “look lovely” -its impossible, in pants for a woman to look lovely, colourful jeans or not. You are rach, but not right.
Is there no censor in the room when needed? Coffee break?August 7, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #891390
+1August 7, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #891391☕️coffee addictParticipant
I was wondering what UWS I was thinking it was unoccupy wall street or something like thatAugust 7, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #891392
mommamia22- thanks ! and read “my other opinion” he/she hit it right on the head.August 7, 2012 2:43 am at 2:43 am #891394TheGoqParticipant
My other + 1000 very well said, are you new here? welcome!August 7, 2012 2:45 am at 2:45 am #891395
Ok you are extremely rude. I don’t care if you buy it or not. 2 of my best fiends growing up and a number of friends from high school moved to the uws and… Not one keeps shabbos or kosher anymore. Many still go to shul Friday night and they do shabbos meals with friends, but they are not keeping shabbos. As I said they are still my good friends, I love them it has not drastically changed out friendships, but that is the truth.
And why would the cr censor the fact that I wrote someone looked nice in pants? You can still look attractive if you are not tsnius, just because I don’t wear pants does not mean I think people who do are disgusting.August 7, 2012 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #891400
mommamia22 -“What occurs in the MO community more than others??
That they were not really frum?”
Some are and some aren’t.
“That they send them to orthodox schools because it’s the social thing?”
Some do it for this reason.
“I’m surprised that you would say such a thing. It’s a blanket statement about an entire community that has no bearing on reality.”
Don’t be surprised and it wasn’t a blanket statement about every MO guy.
“With all due respect, you couldn’t possibly have known the MO community first hand if that’s what you think.”
And why not?
“Within the MO community there are many different levels of yiddishkeit.”
Noone said differently.
“Mainstream MO do not send to yeshiva because it’s the “in thing”. They send their kids to yeshiva as any frum family would to educate their kids in Torah and yiddishkeit.”
I don’t know who are you are refering to when you say “Mainstream”, but I stand by my comments.
“Just check out the Teaneck community and you’ll see what I mean. They have tons of yeshivas, shuls, shiurim, etc. Those families could’ve moved anywhere to fit in.”
I wasn’t talking about Teaneck -I was talking about the West Side.August 7, 2012 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #891401
My comment was “its impossible, in pants for a woman to look lovely, colourful jeans or not.” And I did not say disgusting -but in public, yes, you picked the right word – disgusting – but there are so many around a lot of people have become desensitized. If you are frum,you can’t have this both ways – didn’t your neshama ” cringe” for your wonderful friend in the stupid pants? I’m almost sure it did.August 8, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #891402August 8, 2012 1:34 am at 1:34 am #891403
Ofcourse all pants on women are untsnius!! Didn’t you read my posts? My point was that all of my friends who moved to the city stopped being frum. By saying ” lovely” I was trying to be nice. I did not look at her and think eww you look heinous. I thought ” Oy I remember spending so many shabbosim with you and we talked about what we were looking for in boys and what kind of lives we wanted in the future, and this is just not that”. You misunderstood me. By saying lovely I was referring to your comment about how Jeans are not approprate. He wore ” fancy” jeans. Anyway..August 8, 2012 4:12 am at 4:12 am #891404
It seems like there are two completely different perspectives of residents of the UWS: some, who’s friends from there have all but left yiddishkeit, and others who’s friends have maintained their yiddishkeit. I think it’s fair to say that a community is made up of many types of people and that people will find what they’re looking for.
To presume that our perception of the world is the only accurate opinion may be a bit narcissistic.August 8, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #891405
Ready now: R’ Henkin and Rav Ovadia both say that very loose pants can be Tznius on a woman. (Although by your statement of “all pants” I assume you mean the vast majority of pants worn by women today. Still, it’s not quite 100% precise.)August 8, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #891406choppyParticipant
Very loose pants would mean like the Pakistani women wear.August 8, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #891407
Either way she misunderstood what I said.August 8, 2012 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #891408
My comment- me ready now – was “its impossible, in pants for a woman to look lovely, colourful jeans or not.”
The idea is to bring Jews closer to Torah-not to push them in the mire.August 9, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #891409
I don’t think there is anything wrong with anything that I said. I’m not sure why it is bothering you so much. Can’t we agree to disagree? This is completely irrelevant BUT I would rather be friends with someone who has good midos, is charitable, helpful, considerate etc and wears pants, then is completely Tsnius and a jerk. Obviously if everyone were perfect moshiach would be here! I’m just saying wearing pants is not the worst thing in the world, but obviously it bothers me or I would not have commented on the thread! It makes me sad that so many of my friends don’t care about being religious anymore but what can I do? Pick them apart and never speak to them again?August 9, 2012 3:37 am at 3:37 am #891410
Ready now: I don’t know about that “most”. Almost any Sephardic Rabbi would be plain wrong if he said that. You can’t go against R’ Ovadiah. So you’re down to half already. And there’s no Makor whatsoever to Asser loose pants. Why would “most Rabbis” have a problem with them (I’m talking Halachically, not societally)?August 9, 2012 4:15 am at 4:15 am #891411ohr chodeshMember
If you cant go against Rav Ovadia, you must not wear a wig and rather must use a snood.August 9, 2012 4:22 am at 4:22 am #891412
Ohr Chodesh: Correct. I would say that any Sephardi woman (aside from certain particular Kehillos that never followed R’ Ovadia) who wears a Sheitel is quite mistaken. Even though I think the Sugya is M’vuar not like R’ Ovadiah, he is still clearly the Posek Hador Ham’kubal for all Sephardim and Chalilah to go against him.August 9, 2012 4:48 am at 4:48 am #891413
Unless you are from a mo background, I’d suggest you refrain from telling us about who they are. You are disseminating inaccurate information that only leads to further misunderstanding and intolerance.August 9, 2012 5:39 am at 5:39 am #891414ovadiayosefrocksParticipant
I apologize but everyone here just stam is writing I have connections with Rav Ovadias pakim and seforim. The question was asked whether pants which are loose are acceptable or mini skirts. He never permitted it! Its not mashma like that! PLEASE don’t stam say psakim which can not be the truth!August 9, 2012 7:22 am at 7:22 am #891415KozovMember
OYR- What *does* he say?August 9, 2012 7:59 am at 7:59 am #891416
mommamia22 -“Health -Unless you are from a mo background,”
“I’d suggest you refrain from telling us about who they are. You are disseminating inaccurate information that only leads to further misunderstanding and intolerance.”
I’m actually disseminating accurate information whether you like it or not. For some reason you want us to think that most of the MO community is Frum Yiray Shomayim. There definitely are a good portion that are not. What % in the UWS uses the Eruv which Rav Moshe zt’l held is an Issur D’oraysa of carrying?August 9, 2012 11:13 am at 11:13 am #891417
I would say that a man who says that he finds nothing objectionable about a woman in trousers, might be just a little prejudiced.
Again, it is extremely sad to see people making excuses for stupidity -here pants, instead of investing their precious time in figuring out ways to increase love of Torah and a complete willingness to fulfill all its required observances.August 9, 2012 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #891418ohr chodeshMember
Oyr is correct. Rav Ovadia only said loose pants are better than a miniskirt. He didnt say loose pants are accceptable or permitted.August 9, 2012 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #891419
Ready now: What you just stated was a subjective argument. I like to think of myself as unbiased and I try to learn La’amittah Shel Halachah. So please, tell me, (other than calling them nasty and immodest), what is wrong Halachically with loose pants? I have seen women wearing pants that one would think is a skirt until told otherwise. You actually couldn’t tell the difference. What is wrong with those?August 9, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #891420choppyParticipant
You must be referring to Pakistani women, Sam.
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