March 18, 2015 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #615204
I have two issues with some of the Chareidi parties in Israel which would have prevented me from voting for them had I been able to vote. I’m bringing this up in the hope that someone will explain to me how it’s not really a problem or I am misunderstanding the reality:
1) It seems that the Chareidi parties are only interested in governing and working for the benefit of the Chareidim, not for Israelis as a whole. No other party (with the exception of the Arab parties) seem to be like that. Netanyahu is governing for everyone, not just the right. Even Bennett is not running on a “I only represent the religious Zionist platform.”
2) It seems that the Chareidi parties aren’t working towards the main issue in the Chareidi community- the crippling poverty and the lack of skills/jobs. It seems their focus is combating the draft law, money for yeshivos, cheaper housing… but no plan for sustainable parnossah for their constituents. It seems like from an interview I heard from R’ Dov Lipman (granted, the source itself is biased) that Yeish Atid is doing more to prepare Chareidim for jobs and careers than Shas or UTJ are. Is this issue really not being addressed by the Chareidi parties?March 18, 2015 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1066367
I suspect you are not the only charedi who feels that way. I think many voted Likud and not UTJ . If statistics ever came out for Bnei Brak you would get a clearer pictureMarch 18, 2015 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1066368
Found this from Haaretz
In the Haredi city of Bnei Brak, United Torah Judaism won 59.35% of the votes. Another 23.97% voted for Shas, 5.5% for Yahad, 4.57% for Likud, 2.35% for Habayit Hayehudi, 1.28% for the Zionist Union and 1.15% for Kulanu. The rest of the parties all had less than 1% of the vote in the city.March 18, 2015 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1066369nolongersingleMember
1) Because much of the other major and minor parties specifically target the Chareidi community for harm in various manners. Therefore the Chareidi community needs advocates to counter these anti-Chareidi efforts. Additionally, it isn’t true the other parties run to govern for the benefit of all Israelis. Meretz’s goal isn’t that nor is Yesh Atid’s.
2) As a general by and large rule, native Israeli Chareidim are more interested in Torah than in economic success. They’d rather be an impoverished talmid chochom than a rich baal haboss. Their goal in their lives are to be full time ovdei Hashem rather than a middle class lifestyle.March 18, 2015 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1066370popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Because all the other parties are looking out only for everyone else to the exclusion of the chareidim. So it makes sense that to balance that, the chareidim need to look out for themselves.
Ditto the arab parties.March 18, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1066371gavra_at_workParticipant
nolongersingle – for #1, Both Meretz & Yesh (Ain) Atid want to lift and help all Israelis (granted by their definition of “help”), Charaidim included. A more similar comparison would be to the Arab parties, who are solely interested in helping the Palestinian cause (as compared to the Limmud Hatorah cause, lehavdil).
As for #2, you are 100% correct. That is why the OP’s assumption is wrong. He assumes that the main issue is the lack of jobs and poverty. A real Israeli Charaidi would probably say the biggest issue is that there isn’t enough Limud HaTorah.
So yes, the Charaidim are guilty of not supporting the “Israeli” cause, but Hashem and his Torah. That is not something they are ashamed of. Should they be?March 18, 2015 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1066372
1. In a proportional parliamentary system, most parties become highly focused. The good side is you have parties focuses on your agenda. The bad side is no focuses on the country as a whole. In a single member system (American style) many minorities are cut off from the political system. Netanyahu and Herzog aim their focus a bit higher, but so no interest in serving those who are unlikely to support them (note Bibi’s anti-Arab comments, and Arabs are the same percentage of Israelis as hareidim, and are much more likely to serve in the IDF). In the US, with only two possible choices, candidates focus on the whole electorate.
2. Under the current economic arrangements in Israel, most hareidi would face a very low glass ceiling. Why prepare for a career in an economy that considers religious accomodations to be something undesirable, especially if you a part of a minority that most Israelis would gladly be rid of. In the United States, law and custom are much more supportive of people like us working outside of the frum ghetto (but America has always been proud of its religious diversity). Remember the goal of zionism is a Torah-free society, and when they see a frummie it reminds them that they have failed to achieve that goal. Under these conditions, its rationale for the hareidi parties to focus on protecting communal autonomy. Why prepare for a job that discrimination won’t let you take?
3. In all fairness, hareidim who want a good parnassah tend to either go off the derekh and become religious zionists, or move to a country that believes in religious freedom. The fact that they choose to live in Eretz Yisrael, under a hostile regime, is indicative that they are primarily concerned with something other than making money (unlike their Brooklyn cousins).March 18, 2015 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1066373yytzParticipant
I just looked up the raw election data on the Israeli government’s site. In Bnei Brak, Yesh Atid got 503 votes, just less than the amount (533) that voted for Israel Beiteinu. 129 voted for the marijuana legalization party, and 36 voted for the Na Nach party. 30 voted for the new women’s charedi party.March 18, 2015 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1066374Yayin Yashan B’Kli ChadashParticipant
The draft is blocking the path of chareidim working, by making it illegal to work without doing service. I think the draft has a good chance of being canceled. Almost all senior military advisors think a volunteer army makes more sense to properly utilize Israels strategic strengths.March 18, 2015 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1066375AshParticipant
Indeed the draft makes it impossible for chareidim to live in anything but poverty.
The army is definitely a risk to a person’s yiddishkeit in general. (True there are many that aren’t effected, but that’s not relevant to the many/more who would be. Nachal Chareidi also hasn’t proven itself.) The army and it’s deeply integrated and zionist culture is not a possibility.
Given that, the fact that people can’t work illegally without serving in said army, or getting a true exemption means the Law forced the current learning-only non-working situation.
Yesh Adit and others made the draft the orimary issue of their governmental term, so the Chareidim have to equally make it their own issue. And that is what their voters want.March 19, 2015 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1066376yytzParticipant
I think Yesh Atid et al changed the law so that lack of army service does not qualify you from employment. This was mentioned on Cross Currents, for example.March 19, 2015 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1066377
On the contrary, Akuperma. Becoming RZ is going ON the derech. As for serving in the IDF, if one is not going to learn full time for real he must do his part and serve (unless he has a medical deferment). Otherwise he is a slacker.March 19, 2015 10:56 am at 10:56 am #1066378
simcha613: Your assessment is accurate. I would add another issue as well. While I do want Chareidim and Datiim both to have control of the religious needs of the Country, I have a problem with the way the Chareidim go about it.
The overbearing approach, that has nothing to do with Halacha is a big problem that turns people away as opposed to drawing them near to Torah. The administration nightmare that a Chiloni has to get married, without their having a Halachic barrier, is unnecessary. It’s just a control thing. Many opt to go to Europe for a civil ceremony, which creates many other Halachic problems. They wouldn’t do that if the Rabbinite was decentralized enough for someone to go to an approved, more local, Orthodox Rabbi for marry them.
I think their rational is two-fold. One is the fear that if they loosen their grip even the slightest, it would be a slippery slope away from Halacha. This I can understand. Unfortunately, the bigger issue is the control and power that goes with it.
When it comes to issues involving Halacha where there is no viable compromise, the opportunity exists to educate and inform the masses in a proper way that most will understand and except. A sledge-hammer approach, which is often the first way, should be the last option.
Most Chilonim, other than the hard-core Leftists, want anything to do with religion to be authentic. Those people can be educated and would understand the rational for things, if they are explained properly.
Chareidi political leaders mostly don’t have tact or basic diplomacy skills and just alienate people. That is one of the reasons for Lapid’s rapid rise, since the average secular Israeli is disgusted with the constant demands for more and more, while at the same time, the unwillingness to do anything to contribute to the general society (as they see it).
I hear that more then a few Chareidim voted for Lapid, because they themselves want change but fear the backlash from within. That’s sad, that people can’t discuss issues open and honestly about what their needs are.March 19, 2015 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1066379
Avi K. If one holds, following the views expressed in the ???? ???, which is how many if not most hareidim hold, the zionists are ?????? for having initiated a war contrary to halacha for the purpose of driving the Palestinians out of Eretz Yisrael, and by halacha a ???? is required to withdraw and can not kill the ???? who is merely defening himself. Heretofore the hareidim have not had to present this argument, which undermines the legitimacy of zionism in the eyes not only of many Jews but also among the goyim (who are increasingly impatient with Israel’s hostility towards the Arabs, with even the US considering cutting off all assistance and supporting international sanctions against zionists). This is because the Israelis have wisely not tried to force hareidim to join their army.
If a German sought an excuse to avoid joining the Wehrmacht (which for the most part stuck to defending the country rather than focusing on killing Jews), would you consider him a slacker.
P.S. The highly secular culture of Israel is probably a bigger factor in closing doors to hareidim. The truth is that most American goyim (I’m specifically excluding secular Jews) are friendlier to hareidim than are Israeli zionists, with the result that if a hareidim is primarily interested in maximizing parnassah, he will immigrate to the United States.March 19, 2015 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1066380assurnetParticipant
Though I’m not part of a major chassidus or group, my family and I definitely live a Charedi lifestyle, send our kids to Charedi schools, and follow Charedi poskim. That being said, as a full time worker I feel like the Charedi parties don’t represent me at all. They only seem to be looking out for the avreichim, which I am very supportive of, however unfortunately that leaves people like me out in the cold. Why shouldn’t I have a representative looking out for what’s important for me while promoting Torah just because I don’t learn full time? No offence to the Motzeit, but I think the Shas commercial with Deri campaigning the promise to take all the money away from the people who actually earn it and give it to whoever he thins deserves it more is disgusting. The Torah mandates that I give 10% minimum and 20% max to those in need. Since when is it a Torah value for somebody to decide someone else has “too much money” and can appoint himself judge of who deserves it better as if Hashem made a mistake and sent it to the wrong address. Why not promote people being able to lift themselves up out of their situation through emuna and hishtadlus instead of constantly scheming how to get a bigger slice of somebody else’s pie?March 19, 2015 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1066382dakParticipant
My main issue with the Charedi parties is the failure of them to advocate the mitzvot of yishuv haretz, pkuach nefesh, and avenge the blood of the people who have died in terrorist attacks and defending the Jews who live in EY. There was a great rabbi who was very articulate on these issue who is no longer with us. You can call him a charedi Zionist. The Modox were more opposed to him than the charedim.March 19, 2015 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1066383assurnetParticipant
Also I don’t fully by people’s explanations to the OP’s 1st point that since the rest of the parties focus on everyone but the Charedim only the Charedi parties can look out for them. When the cell phone prices went down that saved Charedim just as much money as everyone else. When a fence was built on the Egyptian border to keep out African infiltrators that kept Charedim safer just like everyone else. When 3 year olds were allowed to go to gan for free that probably saved vastly more money for the charedim than any other sector in the country.
And as for the charedi parties looking out for the klal in general – my gut tells me that when they get fund allocations that money mainly gets sent to institutions specifically associated with those parties, not just any old charedi organization just because they are charedi.
The only ones that were truly concerned about frum Jews as a klal as well as all of Am/Eretz Yisrael was Eli Yishai and his party. Unfortunately certain people were determined to ensure that worthy goal was not accomplished.March 19, 2015 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1066384
Lapid did allow the Charedim to work without serving once somone hit 24. However they would not be able to collect any government money.March 19, 2015 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1066385DaMosheParticipant
akuperma: You’re wrong when you say many if not most hareidim follow the views of the Satmar Rebbe. Unless, of course, you’re just referring to Satmar chassidim when you say “many”, as there are many of them.
The leading Rabbonim in Israel do not agree with it. After all, they tell people to run for office, vote, and participate in the running of the state. Most Rabbonim in the US share the same views as the Rabbonim in Israel. The only ones who are adamantly opposed to Israel are Satmar. I’d say Neturei Karta as well, but with the Satmar chassidim going down to protest Netanyahu recently, holding up signs for the world to see one Jew protesting against another, I now lump them together.March 19, 2015 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1066386
1. Lapid’s proposal is that all Chareidim (except those exempted for having too much protectsia) would locked up in prison.
2. Under Israeli law, if someone spends three years in a musical group or doing meaningless “make work” as an IDF jobnik, they can get a job, so why say doing something that benefits society requires six years.
3. Muslins and Christians don’t have to serve in the IDF to get jobs.March 19, 2015 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1066387
You have read more carefully, they were allowed to work at 24. Just no government benefits. However this did not suit some some for political reasonsMarch 19, 2015 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1066388
The proposed law is to throw them in jail for refusing to serve in the army. That is why Likud and Bayit Yehudi enacted (BTW, the numbers are almost the same in the new Kenesset as in the old one, Nationalists and Hareidim are a majority – Yesh Atid could have been dumped at anytime).
And when you no government benefits, do you realize that in many areas (including housing and health care) Israel is still very socialists – the benefits include whether you can get health care and live in a house. And unless you agree it is motivated by bigotry, why do the zionists want to give all sorts of benefits to Palestinians who actively oppose the state, rather than to Jews who simply want to live in Eretz Yisrael in peace.
To understand Israeli hareidim, the compatible groups in American history would be African Americans during the Jim Crow era.March 19, 2015 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1066389
Akuperma- I’m not sure who you are referring to when you say Zionists want to give all sorts of benefits to the Palestians. My understanding is that most Israelis either want them to leave the West Bank, stay where they are as second class citizens, or have their own state. Very few, if any, want them to be full citizens and have full benefits.
And even if those people do exists, there is a difference between Palestinians and Chareidim in the eyes of the Israeli. Chareidim are Jews and Palestinians are not. Your average Israeli has higher standards for Jews, even Chareidim. I might be willing to give money to both a stranger and a relative or a friend, but I have higher expectations for the relative or the friend to reciprocate. I will be more insulted if a friend or relative takes without giving then if a stranger does it. And I would be more likely to give money to a stranger who doesn’t reciprocate than a friend or relative who doesn’t reciprocate.
It’s not bigotry. Your average Israeli is not offended by the intense religious nature of the Charedi. They’re insulted by the fact that the Charedim want nothing to do with them when in their eyes we’re all Jews and we all have a responsibility to the Jewish People as a whole. The average Israeli has higher standards for the Chareidi than for the Palestinian, is more insulted when the Chareidi shuns them and treats them like strangers.March 19, 2015 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1066391lesschumrasParticipant
Akuperma, the Zionists you keep talking about are long gone. It seems your purpose is to invent bigotry and slights to justify chareidi behavior. In addition, to compare chareidim to Jim Crow is reprehensible and insulting to the Americans who were subject to its laws. Blacks had no choice, they couldn’t change their color. Chareidim can use any water fountain, any rest room, sit at any lunch counter and vote. On buses, they enforce im Crow in women by making them sit in the back. When was the last time a chareidi was lynched by a Zionist mob?March 20, 2015 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1066392
Akuperma, it is a Tora mitzva to conquer EY (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Slackers are not only ignoring this but violating the mitzva to participate in an obligatory war (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1-2)March 20, 2015 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1066393
I think it’s somewhat unfair to accuse the Chareidim of only looking out for “Chareidi interests” with out putting the whole topic it in some perspective. Just like Likud and Bayit Yehudi are focused primarily on security issues, Kulanu and Yesh Atid are focused almost exclusively on economic issues, Shas and UTJ are focused almost entirely on religious issues. (Although Shas does focus to some extent on social issues as well.) This includes not only funding for yeshivos, but greater adherence to shabbos (closing down stores and bus routes) and the halachos of geirus as well (which is fully supported by the Chief Rabbinate). Every party has a particular set of issues that is important to it and its voters – I don’t see why the Chareidi parties should be expected to be any different. Why is that when the Chareidim attempt to get more funds allocated towards strengthening the Yeshivos they are accused of only looking out for themselves, while when Bayi Yehudi trys to get more funding allocated towards strengthening the yishuvim it’s considered a legitimate national issue?
“While I do want Chareidim and Datiim both to have control of the religious needs of the Country, I have a problem with the way the Chareidim go about it. The overbearing approach, that has nothing to do with Halacha is a big problem that turns people away as opposed to drawing them near to Torah.”
Perhaps the key phrase is “that has nothing to do with Halacha”. When that is indeed true, I fully agree with you. However, I think that we may disagree on what the exact requirements of the Halacha are. The Chareidim are often (though admittedly and unfortunately not always) simply observing the Halacha as they see it.
“The administration nightmare that a Chiloni has to get married, without their having a Halachic barrier, is unnecessary.”
This is unfair. The administration nightmare that any Israeli has to go through to get anything done that has to be sanctioned by the government is ridiculous. It can literally take days to get the simplest forms and procedure completed. This is widespread problem, deeply rooted in Israeli government and society. You can’t blame this on the Chareidim.
“If one holds, following the views expressed in the ???? ???, which is how many if not most hareidim hold”
My best, although admittedly rough estimate puts the followers of Satmar in the US and the Badatz in EY at about 10-15% of the total Chareidi population. They are certainly nowhere near the majority.
“I think the Shas commercial with Deri campaigning the promise to take all the money away from the people who actually earn it and give it to whoever he thins deserves it more is disgusting”
Your issue apears to be more with socialism (which Shas, along with almost every Israeli party besides Likud, unabashedly espouse) than any issue directly related to the Chareidim.
We do not always hold like the Rambam. Does the Shulchan Oruch bring this down?March 20, 2015 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1066394
Likud and labor are more of a general party as they need to spread out their votes more than special interest smaller partiesMarch 20, 2015 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1066395
mw13- Is that true that they simply represent the religious needs of the nation as a whole? I heard rumors (and I hope they aren’t true) that when they are in charge of funding for yeshivos, it is disproportionately in favor of the Chareidi yeshivos as opposed to the Religious Zionist yeshivos?
Not to mention, that they are also involved in dealing with the poverty in Charedi communities (other than career services), but it doesn’t seem like they are involved in dealing with poverty as a whole.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that is the impression that I get.March 20, 2015 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1066396charliehallParticipant
‘the Charaidim are guilty of not supporting the “Israeli” cause, but Hashem and his Torah. That is not something they are ashamed of. Should they be?’
Were all Jews in Eretz Yisrael to become charedi, the economy would collapse and there would be mass starvation — unless the Arab rashaim wiped us all out before we could starve to death because there would no longer be an IDF. There would then be no Torah in Eretz Yisrael.
The fact is, the current Charedi system does not work and cannot work.March 20, 2015 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1066397
Avi K: The strongest argument that the Rambam did not hold that way is his own actions, i.e. the proof he did believe there is a contemporary mitavah to war against the Muslims is that he willingly took a job helping the Muslims. Could you imagine a Gadol ha-Dor who took a parnassah working for the Third Reich. Remember he worked for Salahdin. Personally. Up close. Saw him regularly (he was the family doctor).
Remember, your position is to to enforcce your view, which is basically a 20th century hiddush (okay, Shabatei Zvi held the same way, but no one else), you are willing to sacrifise the community of Bnei Torah that now lives in Eretz Yisrael, since if the zionists declare open season on the hareidim then the Bnei Torah will be forced to bring medinah in order to survive. Fortunately, most of the leaders of the zionist parties (except perhaps for Yair Lapid) are so fanatic.March 20, 2015 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1066398DaMosheParticipant
Again, akuperma, as others already said, the “zionists” you speak of are long gone. The people running Israel today are not the same as those 70 years ago.
As for the chareidi parties only looking out for Chareidim, that’s a product of the Israeli system. When a party is small, and doesn’t have a chance at being a major party (major meaning a chance at being given the mandate in an upcoming election), there’s no need for them to look at everyone. People will vote for them based on who they mostly align with, along with their major issue. For example, let’s say the chareidi parties are likely to align with Likud, but they also stand for chareidi interests. Chareidim who feel strongly on these issues, and would rather see Likud in power instead of a leftist government would vote for the chareidi parties. This would help Likud get the mandate, and also shows that a large group feels strongly about chareidi needs. Only when a party gets much larger do they need to worry about the larger issues.March 20, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1066399gavra_at_workParticipant
Were all Jews in Eretz Yisrael to become charedi, the economy would collapse and there would be mass starvation — unless the Arab rashaim wiped us all out before we could starve to death because there would no longer be an IDF. There would then be no Torah in Eretz Yisrael.
I completely disagree (although I will say there was an article that quoted the Bostoner Rebbe agreeing with you). IMHO what would result is that the Army would be fully run Al Pi Torah principles, and the Charaidim would join the workforce and Army in droves.
The current system doesn’t work because they are “poschim al shtei has’ifim”, by taking money from but not being part of the Israeli state. If it became Torahdik, they could fully join.March 22, 2015 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1066400
“Is that true that they simply represent the religious needs of the nation as a whole?”
As I pointed out previously, some of the primary religious issues that the Chareidi parties deal with are mandating that stores and bus routes be closed on Shabbos and strengthening the Halachic nature of the state geirus system. Neither one of these issues directly affect the Chareidi community, and yet they are heavily involved in these and other such issues because they believe in strengthening the Halachic observance and jewish character of the state.
I once read in R’ Shlomo Lorincz’s book (although I don’t remember the exact details, I think this a pretty accurate re-telling) that R’ Shach once got up at an election kinus in Bnei Brak and spoke about the severity of desecrating Shabbos. He then asked the obvious question “Why am I talking about Shabbos in Bnei Brak, is anybody here thinking of ch”v desecrating Shabbos?! But when you get up to shomayim, they’ll ask you why you didn’t vote for Charedi representatives in the Knesset who would have strengthened the observance of Shabbos!”
“I heard rumors (and I hope they aren’t true) that when they are in charge of funding for yeshivos, it is disproportionately in favor of the Chareidi yeshivos as opposed to the Religious Zionist yeshivos?”
Don’t believe everything you hear. Even when rumors are true, they are often wildly exaggerated.
That said, there is indeed a tendency among politicians to look out for the interests of their voters before the interests of other citizens. This phenomena is by no means limited to Chareidi politicians. (I seem to remember a statement by then Bayit Yehudi MK Uri Orbach that he would like to divert all available funding to Dati-Leumi Yeshivos.) Perhaps ideally it shouldn’t be this way, but it is all too often the reality.
“Not to mention, that they are also involved in dealing with the poverty in Charedi communities (other than career services), but it doesn’t seem like they are involved in dealing with poverty as a whole.”
Shas has always focused on poverty and social issues to some extent, and it has never to the best of my knowledge differentiated between the poverty of Charedim and non-Chareidim (although its campaigns are generally targeted toward Sephardim).
The focus on poverty by UTJ is a fairly recent development, mostly in reaction to the efforts of Lapid to against their community.
However, the primary issues for the Chareidi parties have always been and continue to be religious in nature – be they about Shabbos, geirus, and kevurah in accordance with Halacha or about learning Torah.March 22, 2015 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1066401
mw13: The administrative system of marriages are of the Chareidi making. They’ve always been in control of it and have resisted any change. Again, we are not talkng Halacha here. There is no Halachic requirement that prohibits someone from using a local Rov, as opposed to a centralized system. Anyone Orthodox Rabbi, who passed the Smicha exams, should be approved, after checking the halachic status of the people involved.March 22, 2015 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1066402JosephParticipant
BarryLS1: The Chareidim have not always controlled the marriage administrative system or other religious services as they haven’t always controlled the chief rabbinite or the religious ministry. Furthermore, the problem with allowing any rabbi to perform any marriage anywhere in the country is that such a system would allow pick-and-choose where an engaged couple that is of questionable halachic marriage allowability could simply find the most lenient rabbi in the country who will allow it rather than being required to engage their own local rabbi whose halacic decision on the allowability of the marriage would be binding.March 22, 2015 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1066403
Akuperma, in Rambam’s time there was no IDF and no possibility or organizing one. He took the job because he needed the money and at the time the Moslems for whom he worked were not oppressing the Jews. The proper analogy would be a frum Jew taking a job as a physician to Obama.March 22, 2015 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1066404
JosephL You left out the key ingredient, ” after checking the halachic status of the people involved.” That should be done by the central authority, i.e. the Rabbinate.
The issue is the administrative nightmare that drive people away that has nothing to do with Halacha. The Halachic aspect should NOT change, but the administrative aspect should be more user friendly. This would avoid many civil marriages.March 22, 2015 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1066405american_yerushalmiParticipant
Akuperma: Before the establishment of the state, nearly all gedolei Yisroel opposed the idea in the stronger terms possible. Unfortunately their words were not heeded, and the state was established. Now after 67 years of the state, you seem to think that an option exists to turn the clock back to ???? To what? To the British mandate? Perhaps the Ottoman empire? While we’re at it, maybe we should revert back to the byzantines or the romans for that matter? You seem to think that there is a possibility of living under some kind of arab/palenstinian regime. Are you serious? In Eretz Yisroel, only the most lunatic fringe of the neturei karta — all 10 of them . . . . advocate joining up with the palestinians. This wildly irresponsible idea has NEVER been espoused at any time by any gadol ba’Torah. To give support – succor – recognition to murderers??? The very notion that the nation of slaughterers would recognize and spare the chareidishe yidden is beyond absurd. The Eida Chareidis doesn’t advocate such a solution, Satmar does not, Toldos Aharon does not. The only ones who do are the supposed neturei karta-niks from monsey, antwerp, london, etc. who do not live in Eretz Yisroel and who speak only (barely!) for themselves. To sum up: the error of setting up a state in 1948 was a terrible one. But NOW, there’s no turning the clock back, nothing and no one to go back to. No alternative government, nation, or empire. The only thing we CAN do is to spread more Torah more mitzvos, more Torah mosdos, more shuls, mikvaos, more shiurim, more kiruv rechokim. Im yirtzeh Hashem, that will speed the arrival of Moshiach Tzidkeinu be’meheirah be’yameinu!!March 23, 2015 4:23 am at 4:23 am #1066406
“The administrative system of marriages are of the Chareidi making. They’ve always been in control of it and have resisted any change.”
That is simply not true. As we speak the Minister of Religious Services is Rabbi Eli Ben-Dahan of Bayit Yehudi. He has been in charge of all reigious services in the state of Israel for over two years. If this was really some diabolical Chareidi plot to intentionally make marriage an administrative nightmare, not just the standard and infamous Israeli bureaucracy, you’d think he’d have cleared it up by now.
“There is no Halachic requirement that prohibits someone from using a local Rov, as opposed to a centralized system.”
True. However, there is a very big problem in allowing every last so called “Rabbi” in the country to make his own standard for geirus.
+1March 23, 2015 6:55 am at 6:55 am #1066407
American Yerushalmi, it is not true that “Before the establishment of the state, nearly all gedolei Yisroel opposed the idea in the stronger terms possible.” In fact, a long list of gedolim were in favor. Rav Meir Simcha (who personally contributed to the JNF) Rav Kook, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Moshe, Rav Henkin and Rav Dessler to name a few. Fortunately THEIR words were heeded and the yishuv did the mitzva (Ramban, Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) of establishing the State (with the signature of then head of Agudat Yisrael in EY, Rav Y> Y. Levin).March 23, 2015 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1066408
mw13: It’s a function of the Chief Rabbinate. The Cabinet Minister has been there a very short term and is trying to make reasonable changes.
Also, especially from your last sentence, you are commenting on something you made up, which is the opposite of what I said.
I said clearly enough that approved Rabbi’s, who passed the Rabbinate Smicha exams and after the central body confirms their kosher status for marriage. While the Geirus issue wasn’t discussed, the same applies. Is there something wrong with the Orthodox system of converts in the U.S.? We are essentially talking about the same system, except with the Chief Rabbinate’s oversight and approval, which would make it superior to the U.S. system.March 23, 2015 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1066409writersoulParticipant
a_y: I recall being in a bit of a hopeless debate with an old poster (I believe it was Health?) in which the other poster was apparently serious when he (I think he…) stated that we should go back to the Ottoman era.
I don’t fully agree with the “1948=terrible error” part of your ending, but with the last bit obviously 100%.March 23, 2015 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #1066410JosephParticipant
BarryLS1: Because allowing pick-and-choose will allow the lowest common denominator when everyone picks the most lenient rabbi for geirus despite the opinions or consensus against permitting certain conversion scenarios.
How will the central chief rabbinate system prevent lone wolf rabbis from “converting” inappropriate prospects? Will it declare them retroactively, after the lone wolf rabbi inappropriately “converted” someone, as being invalid?March 23, 2015 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1066411
Joseph: Why is this so complicated? If the Rabbinate is approving the Rabbis in question, the process and procedures and verifying the status of the people getting married, why can’t someone use the Rabbinate APPROVED Rabbi they are comfortable with?
It’s just decentralizing the process to make it more user friendly. The current system is too over burdened and it is driving people away. This is not a big deal.March 24, 2015 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1066412
“It’s a function of the Chief Rabbinate. The Cabinet Minister has been there a very short term and is trying to make reasonable changes.”
Again, that is simply incorrect. While the Chief Rabbis set the policy, it is the Ministry of Religious Services that carries them out.
“especially from your last sentence, you are commenting on something you made up, which is the opposite of what I said. I said clearly enough that approved Rabbi’s, who passed the Rabbinate Smicha exams and after the central body confirms their kosher status for marriage.”
I was not commenting on something I “made up”. I was commenting on recently modified Israeli geirus law, passed with Bayit Yehudi’s support, that allows any certified “Rabbi” in the country to perform geirus to his own standards. The Chief Rabbis have both said they will not recognize these said conversions, because it allows too much latitude to individual Rabbis and provides no oversight.
What you are referring to, where any Rabbi could perform the ceremony of the geirus once they have received a go-ahead from the Chief Rabbinate and as per the procedure supported by the Chief Rabbinate, indeed does not have these problems; however, that is simply not what the current law says.March 25, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1066413newbeeMember
simcha: I have heard from some people who felt that the secular anti-frum israelis were also pushing to prevent yeshiva bochrim from having to serve in the army, so long as they were forbidden to work as well, with the hopes that being forced to live in poverty would destroy the entire society. It has not destroyed the society but you are right that that mindset and laws has led to serious poverty issues and it’s a real problem I dont see an easy solution to for the current generation. As for your first point, I would say charedim care about all people who wish to be chareidim- but those who choose not to they dont care about. This is true for all non-racial minority groups.
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