November 28, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #611423
Many Yom Kippurs ago, when I was below 14 years old I made fun of disabled people. Once I read about disability called Autism.
As a child I had no difficulties as I had no responsibilities, but as a young adult I found myself falling behind my peers. In ’92 I was diagnosed with autism. Depression is a separate issue. I have failed in every way and suffered terribly. I can never say that my suffering is undeserved.November 28, 2013 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1192010abcd2Participant
you are being terribly harsh on yourself, please discuss your feelings with a Rav or frum psychologist.
May the simcha of Chanuka give you a lechtige spirit full of light and joy.November 29, 2013 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1192011kkls45Member
This world is not the world of reward and punishment. The next world (olam haba) is. This means that anything that is happening to you now is not because you deserve it or don’t deserve it.
This can explain why good people sometimes have very hard lives while and bad people can have everything going for them. Everyone will get what they deserve in the next world.
What is happening to you is probably not because of something that you did before you were 14.November 29, 2013 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1192013
Kkls45: Not so, that is apikorsusNovember 29, 2013 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1192014
Hashem is not punishing you for making fun of disabled people. Hashem has a master plan for you and your job is to do the best you can to serve Him with whatever He gave you. Perhaps this realization is an opportunity for you to do a full tshuva for those hurtful actions. Many of us will not even remember things we did and we will go without doing tshuva for them.
I spend a lot of time with people with Autism and I think they are awesome people who are closely connected to Gd. I agree that you should find a therapist or rabbi who councels who can help you see your true worth.November 29, 2013 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1192015
Popa, I think you’re being too harsh. Kkls45 might have just meant that we can never know why something happens and when there will be retribution.November 29, 2013 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1192016
I don’t think Popa is being too harsh at all.
Syag said that “Hashem is not punishing you for making fun of disabled people.”
How can anyone proclaim to know what God is or isn’t doing? There’s a very real thing in this world called schar v’onesh. It’s the eleventh Ani Ma’amin.November 29, 2013 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1192017
Autism doesn’t happen spontaneously. You had it then too.November 29, 2013 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1192018Sam2Participant
PBA: S’char Mitzvos B’hai Alma Leika isn’t Apikorsus.November 29, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1192019
rebyidd – not sure your point, but there were probably kinder things you could have offered.
LAB – How do you know I don’t have nevua?November 29, 2013 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1192020
>> you are being terribly harsh on yourself
Not really — I am much much more afraid to do anything illegal then sinful. I have never broken the laws and never been arrested. But I have much less fear of G-d then I should.November 29, 2013 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1192021
LAB, popa wasn’t even talking to Syag. Either way, give them a break. They’re just trying to tell Lost1970 that he shouldn’t be so hard on himself.November 29, 2013 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1192022
>> This world is not the world of reward and punishment.
>> The next world (olam haba) is. This means that anything
>> that is happening to you now is not because you
>> deserve it or don’t deserve it.
Thank you. Being sort of new I learn every time.November 29, 2013 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1192024
>> Autism doesn’t happen spontaneously. You had it then too.
Maybe depression is a blessing — otherwise I would not have thought of spiritual matters. It is G-d’s help for my teshuva.November 29, 2013 3:39 am at 3:39 am #1192025
Sam, to be fair, he’s talking onesh, you’re talking s’char.November 29, 2013 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1192026
DY – thank you, the voice of reason.
Lost1970 – I too have suffered greatly in my life, and I think it has increased my value of life, it has woken me out of my do-it-by-rote life and it has transformed me into someone I never would have been. I cannot say I am grateful for my pain, but I can certainly say I am trying to serve Hashem the best I can as the transformed person I am. I only say this to encourage you, we can channel our pain into a drive for growth. And if your ability to grow is by the millimeter, I assume, though I can’t possibly know, that Hashem will love each milimeter.November 29, 2013 3:54 am at 3:54 am #1192027
Also, Sam, I don’t think “S’char Mitzvos B’hai Alma Leika” means that there’s never s’char, otherwise how could there be “d’vorim she’odom ochel peiroseihem bo’olom hazeh”?November 29, 2013 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1192028HaLeiViParticipant
You definitely do not sound Autistic. You express feeling very clearly.
Sam, punishment is not S’char.November 29, 2013 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1192029kkls45Member
Popa, can you please explain why that would be apikorsus? I am saying that there is schar vaonesh but it will happen in the next world, not here.
Btw I am repeating this from a speech that I recently heard on torahanytime by Chevi Garfinkel.November 29, 2013 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1192030
Apikorsus is when you disagree with popa.November 29, 2013 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1192031
>> I too have suffered greatly in my life, and I think
>> it has increased my value of life, it has woken me
>> out of my do-it-by-rote life and it has transformed
>> me into someone I never would have been.
May G-d help you.November 29, 2013 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1192032
Thank you, He always does.
(obviously I don’t *know* that, but I assume it to be so)November 29, 2013 6:17 am at 6:17 am #1192033fkellyMember
Not everybody with autism has difficulty expressing feelings.November 29, 2013 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1192034
Syag – I belive it says that nevuah was given to shotim?
Daas – I know, I can read too. I was pointing out that what Syag said was questionable as well. And making someone feel better about themselves is not a reason to say borderline apikursus.November 29, 2013 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1192035
Syag – I believe it says that nevuah was given to shotim?
And what of it?November 29, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1192036November 29, 2013 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1192037
I know. Did Syag Lchochma declare not-art-of-that=group?November 29, 2013 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1192038
LAB, in context, their posts, I think, did not mean to deny onesh in this world, just that there can be other reasons for suffering as well.
If they really think that Hashem never punishes in this world, then they’re wrong.November 29, 2013 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1192039
The non-apikorsim club welcomes DY. You too can join! Just be modeh that things that happen in this world are done by Hashem for a reason and those include schar v’onesh. Like the Torah says!November 29, 2013 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1192040
I absolutely did not mean that I know what Hashem is planning and I think it was pretty obvious in context (as DY pointed out). I didn’t even mean that there is no onesh in this world, which I also think was pretty obvious in context.
We cannot just take our hits as a pay-back for a deed done and leave it at that. We are obligated to take everything Hashem gives us and use it to serve Him. We can look for patterns and messages, but we should never consider it an open and shut deal, as in, “I did x, I got y, now let’s move on”November 29, 2013 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1192041MDGParticipant
“Not really — I am much much more afraid to do anything illegal then sinful. I have never broken the laws and never been arrested. But I have much less fear of G-d then I should. “
There is a story in the Gemara where a Rabbi blesses his students that their fear of Heaven should be as great as their fear of their fellow man.
Clearly it’s always been a problem.November 30, 2013 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1192043writersoulMember
I think the difference is that while things do happen to us in olam hazeh because of things that we do, there isn’t a direct, apparent correlation until olam haba. People can say that Hurricane Sandy happened because my Shabbos skirt is too short, but it’s a shot in the dark- they have no way of knowing. In olam haba maybe I’ll get onesh for having my skirt be too short, but it’s only then that I’ll know for sure that that was the reason.December 1, 2013 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1192044
Sam: I take that gemara to mean that there is no guarantee of schar mitzva in this world.
Because what is the other choice–that ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? means that nothing in this world happens because we do mitzvos or aveiros? Does that comport with the rest of chazal and the Torah?
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And the myriad times in chazal that it says that someone was punished for something or rewarded for something. For example Dovid Hamelech in the daf a couple days ago (for those on the REAL daf schedule).
I don’t think anybody understands that there is the entire corpus of shas on one side, and it is a machlokes with that gemara!December 1, 2013 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1192045Torah613TorahParticipant
Torah613Torah says: I am modeh that things that happen in this world are done by Hashem for a reason and those include schar v’onesh. Like the Torah says!December 1, 2013 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1192046
“There is a story in the Gemara where a Rabbi blesses his students that their fear of Heaven should be as great as their fear of their fellow man. Clearly it’s always been a problem.”
Unfortunately I like most people fear sin much less then I fear breaking the laws of the land.December 1, 2013 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1192047
Other examples off the top of my head: Miriam’s tzoraas, Moshe Rabeinu’s tzoraas, Yosef’s two extra years in prison. The Ramba”m proves it from the pasuk of “M’cheini na misifricha” to which Hasem responded, “Mi asher chotoh li emchenu”.
T613, welcome to popa’s club!December 1, 2013 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1192048WIYMember
Theres also the concept (Rav Yehonoson Eibeshutz discusses this) that bad things can befall a person due to his sins not out of punishment but rather due to hester panim. If a person turns his back on Hashem, Hashem will so to speak turn His back on him and leave him to the mazalos and nature…November 15, 2016 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1192049Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
One of my Rebbeim once said that Hashem doesn’t punish; He corrects. Whatever Hashem does is because He loves us and is for our good.
So when bad things happen, whether or not it is as a “punishment”, it is not because Hashem “wants to hurt us” because He is mad at us for not being perfect. He loves us and understands us and knows that we are not perfect and are trying to do the right thing. Whatever He does is good for us and helps us to be closer to Him.November 15, 2016 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1192050Sam2Participant
DY: Pashtus is that that Mishnah/concept is not Aliba D’R’ Yaakov, who holds of Schar Mitzvos B’hai Alma Leika.
I believe I once saw a Maharsha (I think in Kesubos) who actually asks and answers your question, though. He thinks everything on that list are those Mitzvos that inherently and actively (unclear what the fine line is between these and all other Mitzvos) make you a better person. Therefore, the Peiros that you get from them in Olam HaZeh is just more Mitzvos. It’s not any Schar. All Schar is in Olam Haba. These have Peiros in this world because they have direct effects on this world that will come into play in everyday life (better relationships with parents/neighbors, doing more Mitzvos, etc.).
I have to think about whether holding Schar Mitzvos B’hai Alma Leika means that there can still be Onesh in this world. I find it highly unlikely, but I’ll look into it B”N.November 15, 2016 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1192051Lilmod UlelamaidParticipant
My understanding of “Schar Mitzvos b’hai alma leika” based on the way I learned about it many years ago is along the lines of what Sam2 wrote.
Basically, the real schar is in olam haba, but at the same time we see that there is a concept of schar in this world (as seen in Krias Shema “V’nasati matar arstzichem b’ito”) which has to be explained in light of “schar Mitzvos b’hai alma leika”.
I think the explanation I learned was that if you do Mitzvos, Hashem might give you things to make it easier for you to continue doing Mitzvos. Like if He sees You are using your money for worthwhile purposes, He may give you more money. So it’s not really your schar per se’, it’s to help you to continue doing Mitzvos.
Sam2’s explanation sounds like a good explanation as well, and it fits in with the above. It’s a somewhat similar idea.
I have also learned that one of the reasons for “tzadik v’ra lo, rasha v’tov lo” (Righteous people sometimes suffer in this world and wicked people sometimes have it good) is that Hashem wants to give the wicked person his reward in this world so that he won’t get a reward in the World – to- come, whereas He “punishes” the righteous people in this world so that they won’t have to be punished in the World-to-come.
So it would seem that there is a concept of punishment in this world. However, it is for our good and is for the purpose of “cleansing” our Neshamas so that we won’t have to be punished in the next world.
For that matter, the punishment in gehinom is also for our good and for the purpose of cleansing our souls, but it is much better to receive the punishment here since any suffering in this world can not begin to compare to the suffering in Gehinnom.
Also, the purpose of suffering in this world (punishment or not) is always to help you to be a better person while you are still in this world and have a chance to grow. Even if you don’t feel like it’s bringing you closer to Hashem, and even if you feel like it is bringing you further from Hashem, it always has a positive impact on your neshama.November 16, 2016 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1192052LightbriteParticipant
Lost1970: You may have been autistic then and it was only diagnosed now. You could have been acting out. Sometimes children who feel different for some reason may feel better by putting someone clearly different down. Maybe you were suffering then and still have work on healing your wounds.
It’s okay to feel remorse. It shows that you care. Remember that you can forgive yourself too.
I know someone who made fun of individuals who were gay, incessantly, when he was younger. He learned that people are people and now is kinder. It was his teshuvah. Hashem did not turn him gay.
I learned dialectical thinking recently, and how to use dialectical statements. Two opposing statements in one sentence. This flower is both medicinal and toxic.
This situation where you once teased individuals with Autism and then discovered that you have Autism both brought you feelings of remorse for past behaviors and now has given you far more compassion.
Does that help any?
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