July 29, 2013 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #968679
She had two 50 lb bags plus a carry on suitcase weighing about 20 lbs as well as a 10-15 lb backpack. As Sara weighs 110 lbs, yes the bags together (weighing about 130 lb) DID weigh more than her….. On her way there, she stumbled over one of her larger bags
Nopes. She may have weighed less than all of her bags together, but if she tripped over one of her larger bags, then the most that could have been on top of her is 70lbs. It would take real talent to trip and fall underneath what you tripped over… It is possible that the whole thing was for less than a half a minute and she exaggerated when telling this story to her mother.July 29, 2013 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #968680Torah613TorahParticipant
Agree with Popa. And Gamanit.July 29, 2013 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #968681
I have tripped over smaller bags, and when I fell, my foot caught under one of the bags, knocking it into the air and they fell on me. It happens, and it takes no talent at all, just a simple misstep. Hope it never happens to you. It HURTS and is VERY embarrassing (especially because some people might think it takes “real talent” to do that).July 29, 2013 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #968682
oomis, not a 50lb bag…July 29, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #968683popa_bar_abbaParticipant
PBA: So why would helping someone with their luggage be any different? (Now that I think back, I think I also helped a bunch of seminary girls pull their too-heavy luggage off the baggage claim thingy when we first landed too.)
Sam: I probably would if I thought they needed help. In a case like this, it is hard for me to imagine that an able bodied young girl really needs my help standing up, and, it is a lot more of a tznius concern when she is sprawled on the floor, and, most girls I know would rather their sprawling on the ground be ignored than all the attention right then.
I mentioned the part about the feeling of closeness, because I was bothered that some were seeing the question as only an issue of negiah. It isn’t only about negiah. It is still a situation by situation call, but there are real stakes.July 29, 2013 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #968685
oomis, thank you for your many intelligent and well-reasoned posts. “
Thank YOU for the kind words…
Gamanit, I have tripped over less than a suitcase. When the wind gets knocked out of you by a hard fall, it is momentarily confusing, absolutely embarrassing, and possibly injurious. The sooner someone helps you up (unless you have a broken limb or possible concussion, and YES that can happen from falling over a 50 lb. bag), the more quickly some of the embarrassment is mitigated. I don’t buy the notion that normal people would be embarrassed to be helped up by ANYONE, when they cannot get up by themselves. The inability to help oneself, not the negiyah per se, is what is most humiliating. And if girls were not being taught that it is untzniusdig to allow someone to literally give them a helping hand in an emergency of this nature, there would be no inyan whatsoever of embarrassment.
But whatever one’s beliefs in this specific inyan might be (and I respect ALL of them, whether or not I agree), I am sure we could ALL agree that at the very least the person of the opposite gender should quickly get proper help for the person and not just stand by gawking. Personally, I would not want to wait that long to help someone.July 30, 2013 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #968686
oomis- I’m not saying if I were there I wouldn’t help- not at all. What I’m trying to say is the story might have been exaggerated to begin with… I’ve been on five minute lines at the kosel and heard sem girls complaining how it’s not fair they had to wait a half hour. We were on the same line, I had a watch. Based on the way seminary girls tend to talk I’d assume the real incident was that she tripped over her suitcase, landed somewhere between the other two with it somewhat on top of her. People were looking for about three seconds deciding what to do, and she got up on her own without help. The story she said is what it FELT like to her, not what actually happened. Think basic physics…July 30, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #968687
Gamanit,then it would have been obvious she was NOT in need of help, if it happened as you assume. She got up immediately on her own, in your scenario. In that case, I would completely agree with what was said by you and others. BUT – if things played out in a different way, and she could not get up, or was injured or stunned for a moment, I would like to think that ANYONE would immediately offer a helping hand (or find someone appropriate in his stead)and not feel the need to consult a rov before doing so. I ain’t changin’ my opinion on this.July 30, 2013 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #968688
I’m sure if she would have been seriously injured qualified personnel would have been notified right away. Travel tip to girls going to seminary- in Ben Gurion Airport, luggage carts are free. No need to make do without one like many do in JFK.July 31, 2013 7:22 am at 7:22 am #968689jewishfeminist02Member
Gamanit, it is unfair to judge this anonymous person “based on the way seminary girls tend to talk”. And nobody is arguing that she was seriously injured, only that it’s possible for her to have been temporarily trapped on the ground for more than three seconds.July 31, 2013 9:51 am at 9:51 am #968690BaruchParticipant
The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases in which individuals do not offer any means of help to a victim when other people are present. The probability of help is inversely related to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. Several variables help to explain why the bystander effect occurs. These variables include: ambiguity, cohesiveness and diffusion of responsibility.
Every Yeshiva Bachur knows to respond if needed. Here it’s inherently unclear Am I needed? Me? and he looks to his right looks to his left. No one’s moving. So he doesn’t move.
The reason this is a thread that got so much attention is that this seemingly is because of religion. It had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with bystander effect.July 31, 2013 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #968691
I think we have discussed this issue long enough, don’t you?July 31, 2013 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #968692yacr85Participant
jewishfeminist02 But you had no problem believing the OP’s version/speculative guess of the story! (knowing that the OP was doing a whole load of judging)
What really strikes me as funny, is that no none here actually saw or knows what really happened. We don’t have any hard facts other than there was a suitcase, an airport and a girl. Yet you have 70 comments! Does this make any sense?! Why doesn’t someone find out the facts, then we can try to be objective.July 31, 2013 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #968693
We are actually discussing MANY theoretical variables. The main one is – WHAT should a frum guy of any age, married, not married, yeshivish, not yeshivish, do when confronted with a scene of this nature and there is no one else who is appropriate nearby to help? IMO, the answer should be a no-brainer.July 31, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #968694jewishfeminist02Member
Exactly! We don’t know what happened! As I posted on another thread, it is completely pointless to “argue with the question”. You have the take the OP’s story as a given. Obviously IF she could get up on her own, etc etc the boys need not have helped her. But, ASSUMING SHE DID NEED HELP, did they act correctly or not? That is the only question, and the OP’s judgments are irrelevant.July 31, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #968695
Theoretically speaking, if a girl falls flat on her face and a 50lb suitcase lands on her back, don’t touch her. I don’t care if you’re a man, woman or chimpanzee. If something heavy lands on a persons back, they can potentially have a spinal injury. She/he should not be moved until EMS examines her/him. You should call EMS right away, and only then can you gently remove the suitcase as long as you don’t move her at the same time.July 31, 2013 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #968696
Gamanit, what you posted goes without saying. Unless you are trained in this type of situation, you never move someone who has had a really serious back or neck injury, except to save their life. And at least, remove the heavy object that lies on them.July 31, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #968697golferParticipant
Gamanit, if you’re a chimpanzee then the situation requires a whole different thread.
If you’re a human, then I’m with oomis on this one. We’ve dissected this (possibly fictional, possibly true, possibly silly, possibly weighty) story to death.
Hatzlacha to all the young men & ladies flying off to Israel soon. Here’s hoping their behavior displays their decorum, modesty and good sense. And may they all arrive with themselves and their luggage intact!July 31, 2013 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #968700
And may they all arrive with themselves and their luggage intact! “
Amen, to that!!!
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