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– They say it looks “goyish”, what is that supposed to mean?
– They tell me it isn’t tzniyus, ok…but why?
– I heard you can’t wear colors except for whites and nudes because they draw attention, but you can wear colors besides whites and nudes on your shirt, skirt, shoes, bag because those larger items won’t draw attention
– A friend said it’s because it pops out on the skin. Mazal tov, so do bracelets, earings, and so on but we can wear those.
– The last thing someone said was “Well, it pops out when no one else is wearing it”. Yes I can see that. If I go out to the street with a burka it will pop out too. But why is no else wearing it in the first place? If everyone was, it wouldn’t pop out at all.
The yeshivish world confuses me.
I need some coffee….
I know someone who wears nail polish in very bright colors.
The truth is, it looks really pretty. So pretty, in fact, that when I walk into a room and she’s there, the first thing my eyes focus on is her bright-blue or bright-purple fingernails.
Say what you like about tznius……but is that really what you want? Do you want your fingernails to be the very first thing people notice when they see you?
It depends entirely on what the people around you are wearing.
Re: “pop out”. In some circles studs in the tongue, cheek piercings and bald tatood heads don’t pop out. In some places skimpy clothing doesn’t pop out”. Are you sure “popping out” is the standard to apply?
The problem with cheek piercing is not that it’s not tznius if everyone around you has it, it’s that if everyone around you has it, you’re with the wrong crowd. There are some very nice communities where nail polish is accepted.
Have you ever considered maybe you are in the wrong community for yourself?
Shoppin613, if you were a man, you would have understood. And the point is not to draw the men’s attention.
If you are a female human, you will draw the men’s attention to some extent.
mdd: That’s silly. Also, it is a pointless and useless argument. You can make anything up and say “if you were a guy you’d understand”. We have Halachos. Those determine what’s Muttar for a woman to do. if you, as a man, find something outside that attention-drawing, then it’s your job to avoid it.
Sam2, what you say is ridiculous. What I said is the bottom line principle behind these Halachos. We are not talking here about gzeras ha’kosuvs without a non-Kabbalistic reason. Plus, it is not a Halochah — rather a proper thing to do.
RebYidd, and if she wears red nail polish, it is going to be a significantly bigger extent.
mdd- same goes for a red dress. The discussion here was regarding nail polish colors that would be okay if it would be on a shirt. I saw a lady that was wearing a blue and green dress and blue nail polish. It looked very pretty but not striking in the least.
nail polish is not tznius if it’s a bright color. the same way certain colors of dress isn’t appropriate and certain color makeup isn’t. furthermore, nail polish is enhancing one of the most tumah parts of your body. when u cut your nails, you have to discard them and wash your hands because you are tamei. in addition, nails symbolize the chait of Adam and Chava. after they ate from the eitz hadas, they became naked. it says the clothes they wore resembled nails. we look at our nails by havdala to remember that. why would you want to accentuate the part of your body that resembles chait, especially if you are a girl and we have to repent for what Chava caused?
Shopping: try to be glad you’re in a community that shares most of your important values. Colored nail polish is not exactly classy, and most of our traditional communities are conservative when it comes to dress. The reason you feel otherwise is most likely because you grew up in a different environment – and you’re young which makes you naturally more adventurous – so you have a different perspective.
If I’d wear soft pink nail polish with soft grey cat decals/art (nothing ostentatious) would you feel it appropriate for a Bas Melech? Since I’m a grown woman and most likely the women in your former community didn’t wear those, I assume you’d find it unappealing.
And if you want to compare it to tatoos, there are stickers that may even appear real, so no actual issurim involved (perhaps maros Ayin, but for arguments sake let’s assume it’s irrelevant). Would you consider these appropriate for either men or women?
Finally, since our grandmothers going back many generations didn’t wear nail polish, most “chareidi” women didn’t feel it’s right to start this new trend, so they remained without. That’s part of what being traditional entails, although usually change does creep in slowly, hence the soft colors some embrace. Be aware that like everything involving tznios, it may be a slippery slope.
If it makes you feel better, nail polish and the solvents to remove them are generally unhealthy. Avoiding them will add to your schar for the mitzva of protecting your health.
“Tatoos are forbidden from the torah.”
That was my point. Step 1 is halacha, step 2 is minhag hamakom and what “pops out”. You can not jump to step 2 and ignore step 1.
Shopping613, bright nail polish is objectively attracting. Nose rings is a subjective chumrah.
Im certain I would sooner notice a nose ring than any color nail polish.
mdd: Will you stop making up what’s “objectively attracting”? The Gemara and Halacha says that women wore makeup and dyes to color their bodies. It doesn’t say it’s Assur. Nowhere does it say that a woman may not wear these in public. Learn Orach Chaim 74 and Even Ha-Ezer 21. Why is nail polish worse than any colored clothing or painting one’s face?
Puzzled.
What are men doing here in the CR discussing women’s adornments??
Tznius is one of those tough subjects that requires a solid Mesorah and a very good dose of common sense. It’s not easily quantifiable, like how many tefachim in an amah or how much romaine lettuce in a kezayis or exactly how far and you’re out of the tchum.
Especially in our difficult dor, when any semblance of modesty has been completely discarded by the secular community, we women need to be very careful that our natural sense of style and innate wish to look pretty, is not being influenced from outside our own daled ammos.
There are of course guidelines that fall within the boundaries of Halacha. Past that, the best advice is to find a woman to look up to and to consult with. It can be a parent, teacher, Rebbetzin, friend or neighbour. Choose wisely.
And may I ask the gentlemen here to kindly stick to their own areas of expertise. Like shul coffee and Tefillin. There is an inyan of Tznius for men as well. And your own mentors would probably agree that your minds are better occupied by matters other than nail polish colours.
Abstaining from nail polish is even more important for men than for women.
Historically when in the contemporary era did Jewish women start wearing nail polish?
golfer, you need men who learn Torah to delineate and quantify what the specific halachas are regarding tznius, including specific limitations and measurements. The seforim throughout history address these and they’re learnt in yeshivos as well as part of halacha. It is also the husband’s and father’s halachic responsibility to insure members of his household are in compliance with these halachas.
Historically when in the contemporary era did Jewish women start wearing nail polish?
Historically, when in the contemporary era did Jewish men start wearing ties?
The Wolf
I think ties came around hundreds of years ago in the Serb/Yugoslav area.
Sam2,I did not say it is assur. As you may know there are Poskim who hold that women are not allowed to wear red clothing. Gemora in Shabbos (based on Psukim in Yishaya) castigates married women from the times of the Bais Rishon for beautifying themselves excessively (and it was done for purposes of attracting men). It is easy to infer from there (and from stam common sense) that it is wrong for a married woman to appear in public wearing tons of make-up and so on (even if we judge her favorably and presume that she does not do it to attract men). Certain things (especially in this area) may not be explicitly assur, but it is proper or a good thing to refrain from them.
Joseph: Ties started in the court of King Louis XIV in the 1700s.
including specific limitations and measurements. The seforim throughout history address these
They kinda don’t. These Halachos are left relatively straightforward and implicit, rather than explicit, for good reason. Halacha says elbows, knees, is a little unclear on where by the neck, and a “tefach” everywhere else.
It is also the husband’s and father’s halachic responsibility to insure members of his household are in compliance with these halachas.
This is an oft-repeated falsehood. There is no specific Halachic responsibility by here. No more so than anyone who can be Mocheh in a breach of Halachah is obligated to do so. There is nothing special about this Mitzvah in this regard.
golfer: I am going to very, very strongly disagree with you, and I hope I’m not rude. A Rosh Yeshivah once told me that over-obsessing about the Halachos of Tznius is itself a lack of Tznius. And he’s right. But that doesn’t mean that people who learn Torah are not entitled and able to have opinions on these topics. They’re in Shulchan Aruch for a reason. Yes, over-obsession is bad. But you are absolutely wrong when you say that men shouldn’t discuss it at all. There is a Chiyuv on men to know Kol HaTorah Kullah, which includes this. So don’t tell people what Torah not to learn.
I would like to make two other points that I do not believe I saw in this thread.
One is that most previous generations of Jewish women worked very hard, using their hands for housework and things that our generation does not understand. Scrubbing floors has been replaced with sponja or mopping, laundry was a day-long job even with help from a laundry woman, often requiring taking large heavy baskets of clothes to the river or putting large pots on the fire to boil water to clean the clothes in them. None of these activities are very conductive to nail polish staying on the fingers, and if it is chipped and peeling, it is no longer attractive, so why start? Only in the very upper classes who could afford household help and the woman did not engage in these activities would you find women indulging in coloring their nails. This would preclude most Jewish households in previous generations.
Another thing is that nail polish would have to be removed, if I’m not wrong, when removing all chatitzos when going to mikvah. I know that Shopping is not yet a married woman, so this does not concern her, but it is probably one reason why she does not see too many married ladies with nail polish in her community. I do not know if nail polish is considered a chatitzo when washing hands for bread.
What does anybody have to say about ruach ra in the mornings that is supposed to rest on the fingertips (or is it just on the nails)? Just curious about that aspect of it.
I always thought that the reason the Yeshivish world doesn’t wear nail polish is because it requires time and effort to remove it properly for tevilah and therefore a woman would not wear nail polish in the days leading up to tevilah.
Now, because they won’t wear it leading up to tevilah, putting on nail polish is indication that the woman has recently gone to the mikvah and publicizing that fact is viewed as untzniusdik.
Sam2, I don’t think you and Joseph disagree much. He just meant that it is their responsibility because “yesh be’yadam limchos”. Besides, the Rambam does talk about a husband stirring his wife on the right path in these areas.
Sam: A husband/father is responsible to insure the compliance of members of his household for the full spectrum of halacha. He is responsible to insure his wife and children eat only kosher, his sons put on tefilin daily, his wife and daughters wear only tznius, everyone keeps Shabbos correctly, etc.
Sam2, no, you are not rude.
And no, I’m not telling men what Halachos they should or should not study.
But I think both you and Joseph might agree that there’s a vast difference between studying Halachos and giving guidance to one’s own family, and discussing nail polish hues with anonymous strangers on the CR.
And I stand by what I said, Joseph. Yes, there are indeed (as mentioned in my previous post) identifiable quantifiable Halachos regarding Tznius that men and women can and should study. There are also aspects of the Mitzvah that are not quantifiable. This is where we find the unpleasant phenomenon of women who have covered everything Halachically required, and still manage to present themselves in a manner that is provocative and not befitting their elevated status as Bnos Yisroel. The guidance of a woman in these matters is indispensable.
mdd: Gemora in Shabbos (based on Psukim in Yishaya) castigates married women from the times of the Bais Rishon for beautifying themselves excessively (and it was done for purposes of attracting men). It is easy to infer from there (and from stam common sense) that it is wrong for a married woman to appear in public wearing tons of make-up and so on (even if we judge her favorably and presume that she does not do it to attract men).
No, you can learn from there that Davka trying to attract man (and these are married, not unmarried, women) is a bad thing. Your comparison is just wrong. It’s a Mah Matzinu from Chamur to Kal. It doesn’t work.
Nechomah: I believe you are incorrect. Nail polish would not be a Chatzitzah as it’s Miut V’eino Makpid.
Just to finish the sentence for Nechomah,
If you ARE makpid, for instance if your nail polish is badly chipped and you’d never want to walk around like that, then it might be chatzitzah and you’re better off getting rid of it before you wash and bite into your sandwich.
Sam, we are makpid l’chatchilah.
Daas Yochid & Sam,
As Sam wrote properly done nail polish (as opposed to chipped or old) is certainly miut v’eino makpid and not a chatzizah m’ikkur hadin. And, as Daas Yochid wrote, Ashkenazim (following Rama in Yoreh Deah 198:1) are makpid not to be tovel even with things that are not a chatzizah. Arguably this includes nail polish.
However, in Yoreh Deah 198:17 the Shulchan Aruch writes that ????? ????????????? ?????????? ??? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????, ?????? ??????. And the Rama does not argue but rather adds that the same rule applies to shochet whose hands are blood stained because the norm of shochtim is not to be makpid. The Rashba gives two reasons for being meikil by hair and makeup: 1. the woman specifically wants them so they are even better than miut v’eino makpid and become part of guf (halachically); and 2. they lack mamushus. The Rashba has to give these reasons because hair dye is not a miut but ruba (we consider hair as if it’s own unit).
Therefore, even Ashekenazim are meikel by hair dye despite the Rama in 198:1. Presumably, because it is given a din of the guf itself. If so, then Ashkenazim should also be meikel by nail polish because the woman specifically wants it there and it becomes part of her guf. (On the other hand, nail polish has more mamashus than hair dye, so arguably the second reason of the Rashba doesn’t apply).
Regardless of the actual halacha, it is very uncommon for ashkenazi women to wear nail polish to the mikvah (and many mikvaos or mikvah ladies don’t allow it). So it remains a reasonable explanation for why Yeshivish women do not put on nail polish.
With respect to hand washing we are more meikel. Whether or not something is chotzetz depends on whether you are makpid on it for hand washing. See Rama Orech Chaim 161:1. So a woman’s nails don’t need to be perfect the way they would need to be be for mikvah, they just need to be in the realm of normal.
Yes, benign, when I discussed a woman being Makpid causing the polish to become chatzitza, I was referring to washing for bread.
And nail polish does have more mamashus than hair dye. If you touch the nail you can feel the polish. I don’t think that’s the case with hair dye, in which case I think the hair feels the same as it does without the dye.
golfer: That might be true of modern hair dyes. It wasn’t of dyes in the olden days.
Sam2- from my research it seems that ancient hair dye worked much like dyes in today’s day and age. Of course the composition was different, and less safe but once the actual dye was washed out of the hair the texture would be back to normal but the color remained.
Sam2, no, it is you who is wrong. It is obviously worse if it meant to attract men, but on the other hand it makes the bad effect on the men regardless of women’s kavonah. Don’t give me your YU-style wiggling around. There is such a thing as noval be’rshus ha’Torah and so on. And here it very well maybe bli reshus ha’Torah. It is not a sha’alah of the 13 middos. It is trying to learn what the Novi wanted us to do, what is the right thing to do.
mdd: “YU-style wiggling”? What the heck is that supposed to mean? I’m pointing out that you made a bad comparison. It’s bad for married women to Davka attract attention and incite desire in young boys (which is what the Hemshech of the Gemara there says). That tells nothing about unmarried woman perhaps unwittingly attracting attention. Nothing.
Sam2, and i was not talking about single women.
Shopping613: It isn’t tznius to “work it out” so that the polish is on during certain parts of the cycle and not on during other parts of the cycle, timed for mikva dates, as that can be a public sign as to where the woman is holding in the cycle.
Joseph, nail polish remover is miraculous at making it “work out”. And is not yet assur as far as I know.
I’m not a boki at modern polish technologies, but Shopping613 was saying it stays on for a couple of weeks and it could be timed for the cycle. If it is on during certain parts of the cycle, and not others, there’s the issue I presented.
With the availability of nail polish remover, nobody is going to assume that your manicures are timed for personal reasons. Your decision to use that system to make it work in your favor should not spark any assumptions.
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