Naming people using two names

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  • #610029

    WIY
    Member

    Does anyone know when this started and why?

    Is it better to have one name vs 2?

    #967347

    From a utilitarian perspective, if you’re naming after deceased relatives, you can get 2 names of 2 different people per child. That way, if you have a lot of people to name after, you can honor all of them.

    #967348

    sam4321
    Participant

    The minhag seems to be to have one but recently it has become common to name using two names.See Igros Moshe OC 5:10 who discuses this topic. He does note that one of the Tosfos had two names, Rav Yaakov Yisroel(chullin 112,hani mili).

    #967349

    writersoul
    Member

    I remember reading that it can be an issue with kesubos and gittin (if a name isn’t used, a) what happens if it’s left off the kesubah/get and b) is it really a name?), but I don’t think there are any actual issues with it.

    If you’re allowed to add a name to a choleh then presumably the number of names you have isn’t a big issue (though I’m completely extrapolating on my own here).

    #967351

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Two of my kids have two names each. The other one has three names.

    The Wolf

    #967352

    yytz
    Participant

    There was a similar thread on more or less the same topic. This is part of what I wrote there:

    “Many gedolim of recent and ancient times have had two names. Among them are the Tur (13th century), the Kli Yakar (16th century), the Minchah Belulah (16th century), the Baal HaTanya (18th century), the Degel Machane Efraim (18th century). Not only did Rav Elyashiv have two names, but at least one of his own children did (probably more — I just couldn’t find their names).”

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/when-why-did-we-start-giving-children-more-than-one-name

    #967353

    rebdoniel
    Member

    People used to not have last names. You were Ploni ben Ploni Mi Yehupitz. Adding second names was a way for each person with the same name in the same locale to have a more distinct nomenclature.

    Some combinations became very popular, such as Daniel Yehuda and Menahem Mendel.

    #967354

    what is the two names are after two different people? like 2 grandmothers? whose neshama does the child’s actions give an ali’ah to? both or is it like naming after noone? My grandmother told me its like naming after no-one but i x see why

    #967355

    writersoul
    Member

    Never heard of Daniel Yehuda as a common combo…

    (Though to me the combo sounds right because those are the names of two brothers I know.)

    I have two names, as do everyone in my family. (Except for one of my cousins. Not sure why.) In our case it was a way to name after multiple people- and it worked, as between me and my three siblings, all of my great-grandparents are accounted for, along with a great-great-grandparent and just a random name that my parents happened to like.

    #967356

    rebdoniel
    Member

    There are loads of Doniel Yehudas. My parents chose to name me after my dad’s father and my mother always liked Gabriel (and when I dunked, I kept the name), hence my name, which ends up having HaShem’s name in it three times.

    #967357

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    some double names are hebrew-yiddish Dov Beer

    Tzvi Hirsh, Menachem Mendel, Areyeh Leib, and so forth

    #967358

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Abba Mori bar Poppa had two first names.

    Tos’ Kesuvos (97/8?) brings a “R’ Yackov Yisroel”.

    Was “Tuval Kayin” two names?

    I think that the Chazon Ish was against it.

    #967359

    akuperma
    Participant

    It appears to have started to become popular during the “early modern” period (period of the early Achronim), probably due to a boom in the population. That way “Yaakov Yisrael” can be distinguished from all the other babies named “Yaakov ….”.

    One should note that the doubling of the Hebrew name with a name in the local language goes back to ancient times, such as “Yaakov Yisrael” being known also as “James Israel” when he goes out among the goyim.

    #967360

    musser zoger
    Participant

    and when I dunked, I kept the name),

    RD, I didn’t realize you play basketball.

    #967361

    eman
    Participant

    Heard of Zev Wolf, Dov Bear, Tzi Hersh nut never heard of Shor Ox.

    #967362

    Toi
    Participant

    my shvigger is sus ferd.

    #967363

    147
    Participant

    If you’re allowed to add a name to a choleh then presumably the number of names you have isn’t a big issue

    Please note that this procedure is known as “Shinui Shem” and not “Hosafat Shem”

    This means changing a name, because in olden days, they simply changed the old single name to a new single name, when double names was not an option.

    Nowadays when we anyways are utilizing double names, and are not on level to obliterate an already existing name, we simply add a name, albeit we still describe the procedure as changing the name.

    #967364

    twisted
    Participant

    I went through life with one name until som MOD decided to add a name after his uncle Getzil.

    #967365

    WIY
    Member

    This 2 and 3 name business makes life harder for gaboyim.

    #967366

    writersoul
    Member

    147: is that so? I’d never heard of that- thanks. DO you have a source? (Just interested.)

    #967367

    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    I heard that R Yaacov Yisroel that Tosfos brings down is an exception since these are realy one name. One can say the same thing for R Yom Tov (Ritvah) which is just one name made of two words. (Also ploni almoni, mei zahav) However, I did hear that two names began during the bayis sheni.

    #967368

    MorahRach
    Member

    My son has 2 names and one is for my grandmother. I was close with her, closer than any other relative- my husband wasn’t close with his grandparents and I really wanted my first child to give her honor. His middle name- I took the Hebrew letter from her name and used it, as opposed to naming my son a feminine name. Some people thought it was weird but he’s our son. We don’t really care what people think!

    #967369

    superme
    Member

    Just so people should know: if yournaming after 2 offrent people thenyou have to make sure that they got a long anddidnt fight…when things were goig on and everything was going badfor me my mother found out about the 2 ppl I was named after but it seems that they were fine with eachother not best friends but not enemies so….

    #967370

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I have read (im pretty sure it was in Rabbi Krohn’s bris book) that if you use names from two separate people, you haven’t really named after either one.

    #967371

    gefen
    Participant

    WIY – Yup – my husband and son can tell you that! Sometimes they get people who have 4 names.

    Actually a friend of mine has a son with 4 names. As far as her others, some have 3 most 2 and I think only one has 1.

    I also heard that if you give a child two names for two diff ppl then you’re not really naming them after anyone. I heard that after I named one of my children that way (shkoyach for telling me after the fact- well I guess it’s cuz they didn’t know I was gonna do that so how could they tell me?).

    #967372

    MorahRach
    Member

    Rabbi Pesach Khron performed my sons bris and he’s a family friend. He didn’t say anything to us afterward about the 2 names from different people.

    #967373

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    morah – I don’t see why he would tell you that, it’s not wrong to do and it is your choice. It perpetuates the memory of the ancestor, it just isn’t their name. I’m pretty sure it’s in his book and I spoke to him about it as well. I davka wanted to give a name that gave the appearance of being after an ancestor but wasn’t.

    #967375

    MorahRach
    Member

    Syag, gotchya! Sorry, I thought you were implying it was wrong so I got nervous.

    #967376

    Here’s another Daniel Yehuda.

    TBH I very rarely use my second name. Asked my rov about that and he said it’s fine, there is no requirement to use both your names in daily life.

    #967377

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just so people should know: if yournaming after 2 offrent people thenyou have to make sure that they got a long anddidnt fight…when things were goig on and everything was going badfor me my mother found out about the 2 ppl I was named after but it seems that they were fine with eachother not best friends but not enemies so….

    What if the two people never met? You can certainly say they didn’t fight, but you can’t say that they got along either.

    Two of my kids are named for groups of people who never met each other (with one exception who is named for an ancestor of mine and his father).

    The Wolf

    #967378

    JustHavingFun
    Participant

    I was careful to name my sons after men. I am named after 2 women, two of my great-grandmothers (Bubby Just and Bubby Having Fun), but my sisters are named after men (same initial, American style).

    My sons: One has 1 name because the person had 1 name. The other has 2 names because I added a name; the person after whom he is named passed away young. So it is the same name, but it isn’t. You can change a person’s mazel with a changed name.

    #967379

    notasheep
    Member

    everyone in my family has 2 names, my husband and all his siblings have 2 names, but both our daughters we only gave one name. the older one was named after my husband’s grandmother who only had one name, and the other we just liked the name. FYI I was named after someone who had the exact same name.

    On a side note: I wonder what the royal baby will be called? they tend to give a few names…

    #967380

    oomis
    Participant

    My children each have two names. We gave a great deal of thought as to what we would name our children. Suppose one wants to name after a Bubby who was not frum, but in all respects, a wondeful person. Isn’t it better to give the child an additional name for someone who WAS frum, but still give kovod to that Bubby? There are no real halachos about naming, rather there are minhagim.

    #967381

    Toi
    Participant

    oomis- that approach is correct. one should, however, have in mind at the actual naming of the child that the name for someone not frum should not be referring to the grandparent but to some tzadekes with that name.

    #967382

    I was named for a grandmother who was not frum. After many years of infertility, my mother became pregnant with me shortly after my grandmother passed away. She didn’t have a Hebrew name, so they gave me her English name as a middle name and chose a Hebrew name that embodied her personality.

    She may not have been frum, but she was a tzadekes. I so wish I could have known her.

    #967383

    oomis
    Participant

    oomis- that approach is correct. one should, however, have in mind at the actual naming of the child that the name for someone not frum should not be referring to the grandparent but to some tzadekes with that name. “

    Interesting that you mention this. We actually were mekavnim exactly that way when we named our daughter. Though she is named for a specific person, WHEN she was named I had in mind something connected to the meaning of her name,something spiritually significant to klal Yisroel, rather than the person for whom she was named.

    #967384

    goodgirl94
    Member

    ugh double names are awkward

    #967385

    Awkward how?

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