Negel vasser on an airplane

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  • #618838

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What do you do when you wake up from a nap?

    #1212708

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    So I guess I can use the sink for now. I want to get a travel kli. B”H. Just found this on Chabad:

    Thank you

    #1212709

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Generally the guidelines are; one should wash after sleeping for at least half an hour, and at Alos hashachar (daybreak). So usually one sleeps overnight and wakes up after daybreak and you can wash according both those criteria.

    But, on a journey, one should be aware of both these things. (It is probably advantageous therefore, to have an aisle seat, so you wouldn’t need to wake up your neighbour who may be asleep for hours when you’re hungry and can’t get out.)

    **This reply should not be relied on, lease consult your local competent Halachic authority**

    #1212710

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    lightbrite,

    Why not use a water bottle or disposable cup?

    #1212711

    Meno
    Participant

    Do you have to wash if you didn’t sleep in a bed?

    Also, can’t you just get a paper/plastic cup on the plane?

    #1212712

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I believe the quote from Chabad is discussing washing for bread. I thought your original question was when and not how.

    #1212713

    huju
    Participant

    Do you have to wash if you sleep in kollel? On Shabbos during the d’var Torah?

    #1212715

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Really?! I can use a disposable cup? I thought it had to have two handles.

    Okay yay!!! I can do that 🙂

    Thank you!

    #1212716

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The halachos of washing for bread are more complicated. I believe there may be a problem of using a water bottle or paper cup (although I’m not sure). For waking up from sleeping, a water bottle or disposable cup are fine.

    “Do you have to wash if you didn’t sleep in a bed?”

    I don’t know for sure, but I think if it’s “sheina kavua” you probably do. But I just realized that she did say “nap”, so I don’t know. I was told that it’s not clear that I have to wash if I sleep on a bus, but I don’t think I was told that I definitely don’t.

    I was concerned that it might be a problem to wash outside because you’re not supposed to wash on the ground, and I was told that since it wasn’t clear that I have to wash at all, I didn’t have to worry about it (taking into account that I try to find a place at the edge of the sidewalk where people aren’t likely to be walking).

    In any case if it’s nighttime, and it’s the only sleep you’re getting even if you are calling it a nap, I wonder if it would be different.

    In any case, you would have to wash negelvasser at alos hashachar regardless of where and how much you slept.

    Nesiah Tova!

    #1212717

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Do you have to wash if you sleep in kollel? On Shabbos during the d’var Torah?”

    Hope you don’t sleep for half an hour in kollel.

    #1212718

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – for negelvasser, you can use any kind of kli (vessel) (or even turning on and off a faucet if you don’t have a kli (vessel)).

    Washing for bread is more complicated. But it doesn’t have to have any handles in any case.

    #1212719

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I don’t think a two-handled cup is needed for washing before bread either. A regular cup will do in this case too. But it should be large and not have a spout at top (so the disposable cup is better than the water bottle in this case).

    #1212720

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Hope you don’t sleep for half an hour in kollel.”

    I hope the Rav doesnt speak for half an hour!

    #1212721

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avrum in MD – I was under the impression that a spout is okay for negelvasser (since m’ikar hadin, you don’t even need a kli). Or do you mean l’chatchila it’s still better not to have a spout if you have another choice?

    #1212722

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    APY -lol.

    #1212723

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you. This is for washing after waking up from sleep.

    Thank you for answers. I know none of you are my LOR. This flight was super last minute. The last time I traveled I didn’t wash upon arising.

    I prob could have theoretically asked a friend but then that would have caused anxiety so it’s safer not to ask yet.

    And it usually takes a day or two for “Ask The Rabbi” to respond.

    Thanks again

    #1212724

    Abba_S
    Participant

    The reason the water used for negel vasser must be absorbed in the ground is that it contain Bad Wind (Ruach Ra). This is only if you slept overnight and woke up after dawn, for at least 30 minutes. If you stayed up all night it is questionable if you have to wash . It is preferable that you use the bathroom first thereby requiring washing and allowing you to make a bracha. You need to pour between 3.3-6.4 fluid ounce of water depending on what you hold is a revious on your hands. The water should be poured from a cup on the hand and disposed in the sink. It is preferable that you don’t wash or make the bracha in the restroom. There is no requirement that the washing cup have handles.

    #1212725

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    sure. I remember having a big problem on a flight to EY once. I had a window seat next to a super-annoying not-Jewish older lady whom I had to keep asking to move everytime I had to use the b.r, so I really tried to limit the amount of times I got up.

    I was quite offended when she made a comment about how often I used the ladies’ room on the flight! I thought 3 times for a 10 hour trip was pretty good!

    Anyhow, I was super-uncomfortable asking her to move so I could wash negelvasser, so I wasn’t sure what to do, and I didn’t know the halachos at the time, so I think I really messed up both with washing negelvasser and brachos.

    The point is that it is good you are asking someone even if the CR isn’t the best choice, because once you are on the flight you might not have anyone to ask, and there are a lot of sheilahs that come up on planes.

    #1212726

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba S – +1 except:

    1.If you stay up all night, you have to wash (halacha l’maaseh at least). The question is on the bracha.

    2. you are supposed to wash before you use the bathroom because your hands may have ruach ra’ah on them. It is correct that you should say the bracha only after using the bathroom.

    3. Most poskim say that you are allowed to wash in the bathroom because today’s bathrooms aren’t real bathrooms. On a plane where there is no other option, it is certainly fine.

    4. It is better to use a cup, but if you don’t have one it is okay as long as it’s koach gavra and 3 times over each hand.

    #1212727

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sources for halachos in my previous post:

    1. Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, Siman 4, Seif 13: If you are up all night it’s a safek if you have to wash.

    Rema (that’s who Ashkenazim go by) there says that you must wash but w/o a bracha.

    Mishna Brurah (whom Ashkenazim generally go by l’maaseh) says that it is a safek if you make a bracha. L’maaseh, he says that you should use the bathroom so that you will definitely be able to say a bracha.

    2. Siman 4, Seif 3, S.A & M.B there.

    3. I don’t have a source off-hand.

    4. Siman 4, Seif 6 & 7, SA & MB. If you can, it’s better l’chatchila to use a kli, koach gavra and a r’viis of water. But if you can’t, you are still yotzei (fulfilled your obligation) w/o it. I made a mistke before about the koach gavra. I was thinking of the fact that the water has to be poured and you can’t just dip your hands in something.

    #1212728

    Abba_S
    Participant

    . Siman 4, Seif 6 & 7, SA & MB. If you can, it’s better l’chatchila to use a kli, koach gavra and a r’viis of water. While this is true and allows you to daven, but you can’t make a bracha (blessing) on this washing nor does this remove the Roach Ra (bad wind) which can only be removed pouring water on them three times. There are those who hold a fourth time is needed to remove the water from the third washing that may contain some Ruach Ra.

    As far as dipping your hands in water I believe this requires a Mikvah or body of water that contains at least 40 saw which I don’t think you will find on an airplane.

    #1212729

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I used a water bottle. B”H I had two seats, aisle and window. After sleeping, I did not use the restroom. I sat in the windowseat.

    Using a water bottle, I washed my fingertips (up to second knuckle from fingernails) three times, right then left then right and so forth, and the water fell off my hands onto napkins on the aisle seat tray table.

    I did not say a bracha. For years I said a bracha but someone told me that it’s not allowed until after I use the restroom.

    But am I supposed to wash then again negel vasser after the restroom?

    One Shabbat, attended a shiur about Ashair Yatzar at the shul. The rabbi said that negel vasser is not required, ever. All that is required is to wash hands with water before saying Ashair Yatzar.

    Also interesting spin-off: There is no time limit to saying Ashair Yatzar. Unlike eating where the after bracha is 70 minutes. If someone forgot to say Ashair Yatzar, hours or more ago, the bracha is still permitted.

    Is this different? Do I say the Al Natislas Yadayim after the washing, without repeating the washing?

    Is washing half my hands enough to purify myself of the Ruach Ra?

    Thank you

    #1212730

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Oh! Maybe the person who said No Bracha was going by a different sefer/sage?

    I noticed he did in another area of *hashkafa* or is it *chumra* differently too. Both were right accordingly.

    #1212731

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also interesting spin-off: There is no time limit to saying Ashair Yatzar. Unlike eating where the after bracha is 70 minutes. If someone forgot to say Ashair Yatzar, hours or more ago, the bracha is still permitted.

    The Mechaber says that, but Mishnah Berurah says many Acharonim disagree.

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    #1212732

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Hmmm. I learned this from a Chabad rabbi. Maybe Chabad goes by the former reference?

    Q please:

    Are you saying that many people concur and say that there is a specific window of time to say Ashair Yatzar?

    #1212733

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you saying that many people concur and say that there is a specific window of time to say Ashair Yatzar?

    The Mishna Berurah is saying it.

    #1212734

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: The Lubavitch poskim do not always agree with the Mishna Berurah. If you are lubavitch then you can follow their psak. As for Asher Yatzar, the Mishna Berurah states that best practice is to make the berachah as soon as possible after relieving yourself as you may have to relive yourself again. However, the Mishna Berurah also states that if you did not make the brocha right away you can do it when you remember even if its much later. (Orach Chaim Sif Zayin Sif Koton Alef).

    #1212735

    Meno
    Participant

    “The Mechaber says that, but Mishnah Berurah says many Acharonim disagree.”

    How do you see that from the Mishnah Berurah you quoted?

    All he said is that if you went to the bathroom and didn’t say Asher Yotzar until the next time you went to the bathroom, you would only say it once rather than twice.

    There’s still no specific time window.

    #1212736

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Technically, you’re right, but the implication of saying one would say a bracha even hours later is that even if one used the bathroom again, he would still say a bracha for that instance (i.e. say two brachos) which the MB says we don’t pasken like.

    #1212737

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know what Chabad does l’maaseh, but the Shulchan Aruch Harav says you can only say Asher Yatzar until the next time you feel the need to use the bathroom.

    So, yes, technically, there is no time window, but it is very limited.

    #1212738

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The Halacha, according to the Mishna Berurah, is that you have until the next time you have to use the bathroom, no matter how many hours later it is.This is what all of you were saying (DY, Meno and Lubavitch Rabbi), but I’m not sure if it was clear.

    Hope it’s clear now. Is it, LB?

    That is why it’s best to say the bracha right away (in case you have to go to the bathroom again and then you won’t be able to say it anymore).

    #1212739

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is no specific window of time, and my response to LB’s post was unclear and imprecise.

    I think her post was also unclear, because it didn’t mention that you can only say Asher Yatzar until the next time you need to use the bathroom, which is not implied, IMO, by the words “hours or more ago”.

    #1212740

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “I think her post was also unclear, because it didn’t mention that you can only say Asher Yatzar until the next time you need to use the bathroom, which is not implied, IMO, by the words “hours or more ago”.”

    True and I hadn’t caught that detail so thank you for pointing that out 🙂

    #1212741

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – hope you don’t mind that I implied that your answer was unclear – I just wanted to make sure that LB understood that everyone was saying the same thing and there was no machlokes here.

    Thank you for explaining why you phrased it that way.

    #1212742

    Abba_S
    Participant

    You have until you feel you have to go so if you have the urge to go even though you can hold it in and don’t need to go, you still can’t make Asher Yatzar for your prior bathroom visit. This doesn’t give you a long time as your body keeps generating waste which must be expelled, this can be anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours depending on the individual. So you should say it as soon as you finish washing your hands after using the bathroom.

    #1212744

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba, If you can, it’s better l’chatchila to use a kli, koach gavra and a r’viis of water. But if you can’t, YOU STILL MAKE THE BRACHA AND IT STILL REMOVES THE RUACH R’AAH. (Mishna B’rurah Siman 4, S”k 15, 16 & 17).

    However,the water does have to be poured (you can place them under a faucet for example even though it’s not koach gavra) (M.B s”k 17) and it does have to be 3x over each time in order to remove the Ruach R’aah (SA seif). Maybe tht is what you were thinking of.

    #1212745

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB: “One Shabbat, attended a shiur about Ashair Yatzar at the shul. The rabbi said that negel vasser is not required, ever. All that is required is to wash hands with water before saying Ashair Yatzar.”

    I think you must have misunderstood what he meant LB. There is definitely an obligation to wash negelvasser in the morning. You definitely have to pour water over each hand 3 times.

    You are supposed to use a cup but if you can’t, you have still fulfilled your obligation. Maybe, that’s what he meant – that if you don’t have a cup, it’s ok (although it’s better to use a cup).

    Until you pour water over each hand 3 hands, your hands have a ruach ra’ah and you are not allowed to touch any openings in your body until you do this, so using the bathroom could be a problem. You are also not allowed to touch food before you pour water over each hand 3 times.

    #1212746

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “But am I supposed to wash then again negel vasser after the restroom”

    You just have to wash with water (it doesn’t have to be negelvasser).

    #1212747

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Is washing half my hands enough to purify myself of the Ruach Ra?”

    L’chatchila, you are suppsed to wash until your wrists. If you can’t, then you have to at least wash until your knuckles and that removes the r’uach r’aah. (like on Y”K & Tisha B’Av).

    If you only washed until your knuckles, it’s possible that you should try to wash until your knuckles later when you have a chance, but I am not sure if you are obligated to or not.

    I’m just curious – why didn’t you wash in the bathroom? Wouldn’t that have been easier? Then you could have washed your whole hands and not have had to worry about where the impure water dripped.

    #1212748

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “One Shabbat, attended a shiur about Ashair Yatzar at the shul. The rabbi said that negel vasser is not required, ever. All that is required is to wash hands with water before saying Ashair Yatzar.”

    I just realized that I may have misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were talking about washing negelvasser in the morning (you wrote the Rabbi said you never have to wash negelvasser). I just realized that you probably meant that you never have to wash negelvasser after using the bathrroom.

    If that is what you meant, that is correct. You only have to wash negelvasser in the morning and after sleeping for at least half an hour at any time of day.

    #1212749

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “LB: “One Shabbat, attended a shiur about Ashair Yatzar at the shul. The rabbi said that negel vasser is not required, ever. All that is required is to wash hands with water before saying Ashair Yatzar.””

    LU: Sorry I went on a tangent with that thought. The rabbi ONLY spoke of washing negel vasser after using the restroom BUT not after sleep. (Caps for emphasis/clarity; not meant to be shouting).

    Thank you thank you

    LU: Why didn’t I wash in the bathroom? I dunno. It seemed more halachic imhhhho.

    Getting up would have added extra steps from my resting place while impure, dunno how many feet/meters/amot?isthattheword?.

    I would have had to fish for my glasses somewhere who knows where in my bag first.

    I prefer to minimize touching the innards of and/or going into airplane lavoratories as much as possible, esp if not needed.

    I thought fingertips would be fine, picturing the rabbi doing it at the table after eating a Sabbath meal and before benching.****

    ****Yes this is totally different. I since figured, and would appreciate knowing more about what that type and timing of washing means 🙂

    Doing it this way felt more like a ritual and spiritual interesting I guess.

    Most importantly … I didn’t think of going to the sink! (Ridiculous I know. Sometimes the obvious, to me, is profound. Maybe I got stuck on details.)

    Oh and perhaps… being awake for 24hrs or something by then with consecutive flight delays and gate changes may have zapped up mental processes that I had yet to recuperate from at that point.

    Thank you thank you

    #1212750

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I think it’s better to wash in the bathroom sink than to only wash till knuckles, but if you have a chance to ask a Rabbi before your return flight, maybe you should do that.

    In terms of the extra steps to the bathroom, as long as it’s under one roof, it’s okay. And you are supposed to wash your whole hands if possible, so that’s why I would say it’s better to wash in the bathroom.

    #1212751

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    It’s okay if it’s under the same roof? Ahh. I thought priority was to not walk more than a certain distance. Some people have the water and negel vasser on their nightstands.

    Thank you LU ~ Just emailed a rabbi 🙂

    #1212752

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    It is correct that priority is not to walk more than a certain distance if possible. However, if necessary, one is allowed to wash under the same roof.

    There are different opinions regarding whether or not one must wash within that distance (4 amos) if it’s possible or if it’s okay to rely on the “anywhere under the same roof” even when one had the option of setting up negelvasser beforehand. That’s why there are many people who set up negelvasser near their bed the night before, and many do not do so.

    I didn’t mention it in my prior post since: 1. There are many who hold that it’s okay to wash under the same roof even if you have the option of setting up negelvasser the night before, & 2. In your case, where it was not an option, it should certainly be okay.

    However, if this is something you are normally makpid (careful to keep) about, then you should probably ask a sheilah about what to do in this case. You have mentioned Chabad, and I am under the impression that Chassidim may be more stringent in this manner.

    When you hear back from the Rabbi, I would be interested in hearing what he says. Which questions did you ask him?

    #1212753

    mik5
    Participant

    The thing after the Shabbos meal [or any bread meal, for that matter] is called mayim achronim. That is a different topic, not related to negel vasser after sleeping.

    Basically, after you finish eating a bread meal, and are ready to commence the recital of Birkas Hamazon, you need to first wash your hands to get rid of the Sodomite salt, and so that you can bless G-d with clean hands [as well as for other reasons]. There are different opinions regarding how much to wash [the Gra says to wash until the wrist].

    #1212754

    mik5
    Participant

    All Chassidim are extremely makpid to wash negel vasser by their beds.

    #1212755

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    mk5 – and there are different opinons regarding if you are obligated to wash mayim achronim nowadays or not.

    #1212756

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU: Yay update!

    So I asked the rabbi how to do negel vasser on an airplane.

    Rabbi just replied 🙂

    Said to take a cup into the bathroom and fill it up several times* until I washed both hands three times.

    *Because one cup isn’t enough for both hands.

    —Teshuvah for my shaila thanks to Rabbi ZN, shlita

    #1212757

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Interesting Halachic update on this topic for Sephardim:

    According to the Yalkut Yosef (Siman 4, Halacha 1): If one does not have a “kli” to wash negelvasser with, he should use the faucet, turning it on and off each time. He should NOT say the bracha of al netilas yadayim.

    This is unlike the Mishna Berurah who says that you do in fact make a bracha in this case.

    Since you are Sephardi, LB, it might be a problem for you to make a bracha in such a situation.

    #1212758

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Another Halachic update for Sephardim:

    According to the Kitzur Yalkut Yosef (6/4), if you didn’t say asher yatzar within 72 minutes, you are not allowed to say it anymore.

    This is unlike the Mishna Berurah who says that you have until the next time you have to use the bathroom.

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