July 4, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2103143crazy horseParticipant
I created the term, it means that the old weren’t orthodox enough, and that’s why today we need more chumros, and any kulos from before don’t apply anymore today.
Neo chasidis is trying to fight this, but who ever isn’t from an hasidic background wouldn’t want another culture to save their own.
This has nothing to do with modern orthodoxy, which is an entirely different conversation.
My point is Neo orthodoxy is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it’s important to recognize it’s existence.July 4, 2022 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2103186Reb EliezerParticipant
Reform was called neolog in Hungary. Do you mean an extreme fanatic orthodoxy where everyone wants to outdo the other. On this King Solomon says אל תצדק הרבה don’t be too religious and look down on others who are not as religious as you are. Maybe we can say on this כל המוסיף גורע one who adds, diminishes. They tell them, isn’t it enough what the Torah forbids but you need to add to it? By that you are diminishing the Torah by showing it is not complete and good enough.July 4, 2022 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2103187lakewhutParticipant
Neo chasidus is ncsy but with beards and peyosJuly 4, 2022 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #2103233smerelParticipant
>>>Neo chasidus is ncsy but with beards and peyos
Not really. NCSY does not focus on Chasidish seforim.Neo Chasidus does
Neo chasidus is not well defined movement even according to some of those who teach it . They focus on incongruent Chasidish seforim of a certain variety (they aren’t into the Meor V’Shemsh or the Noam Elimech) but the they also add Pachad Yitzchok from Rav Hutner and Rav Kook into the mix.
They do not follow Chasidish minhogim and do not value growing breads and peyos. (Some of the neo-chasidus adherents do grow beards and long peyon but that isn’t a value stressed by the leaders of the movement )
NCSY does not stress a mystical component. Neo Chasidus does.July 4, 2022 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2103236smerelParticipant
>>>Neo chasidis is trying to fight this, but who ever isn’t from an hasidic background wouldn’t want another culture to save their own.
Neo chasidis does not look to fight with anyone or anything. There are those who grew up chasidish who identify with neo chasidim and go to their shiurim. But they don’t recruit such people. Or anyone else.July 4, 2022 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2103237Yabia OmerParticipant
Neo Orthodoxy (according to your definition) is a VERY bad thing. Did you know that up until maybe 60 years ago only a few groups kept Rabbeinu Tam? It’s a fact.
Anyway conventional wisdom would say that the way to protect Yiddishkeit is to be more strict but it’s quite the opposite. The middle of the road was the conventional Yiddishkeit for most Yidden .July 4, 2022 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2103252ujmParticipant
So-called Neo-Chasidus is the movement started and led by Rabbi Moshe Weinberger of Yeshiva University, in his Woodmere congregation.July 4, 2022 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2103248
Yabia > until maybe 60 years ago only a few groups kept Rabbeinu Tam?
According to my understanding, those who followed Rabbeinu Tam did it on both ends. But when we all moved together into big cities, it became unseemly that some people go to shul while others are still riding their horses and late Rabeinu Tam before shabbos was stopped.July 4, 2022 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2103249
Meshugene horse, Yabia,
while Rambam says In hilchot deot that the middle road is the right one, he also allows for _temporary_ deviations from the middle path. So, it is reasonable to react to general decrease of observance by increasing it; to progressive education by avoiding it, etc. – but not to make these deviations into a new religion. Note that this “opposite” approach is not just recent. For example, from the time of Rishonim, some started emphasizing that we are “religion of action” rather than just belief – in opposition to the other religion that proclaimed that “belief only” is sufficient.
We also used to have 10 commandments as part of daily public service, and we stopped it again because of minim who said that the 10 are the only ones that are important. We had also lots of takanot against Tzdukim that we now barely pay attention to (shabbat hagadol, for example).
Overall, it might take centuries until we figure out which innovations are genuine improvements, which are harmless changes, and which are temporary measures that we don’t need to take a neder on.July 5, 2022 7:45 am at 7:45 am #21033201a2b3cParticipant
Such a lot of am ha’aratzus on here.July 5, 2022 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2103379Chaylev HalyahParticipant
i was silent until i saw @Yabia Omer’s comment.
Study some Jewish history and poskim. Almost ALL Ashkenazim paskened ONLY like Rabenu Tam (in Shkiya – which im assuming you are referring to; correct if wrong plz). Maran Bet Yosef, and Rema, as well as most rishonim and achronim pasken BFERUSH like rabenu Tam – orach chaim 261 – Lkula ulchumra. And R’ Moshe who said 50 minutes wad aliba d’Rabenu Tam (otherwise its like 15-20 minutes at most). The Bach, who was against it, laments that in Krakow – the LARGEST jewish city in the world; 400 years ago! – ALL ppl there lit candles after shkiya on friday like Rabenu Tam – that was the ONLY shita. There is practically NO rishon that disagrees with him, except Mahram Alshaqar, whose only real svara is that its not the sphardi minhag – which is also the only svara of chacham ovadia to go against maran BET YOSEF orach chaim 261July 5, 2022 11:48 am at 11:48 am #2103407lakewhutParticipant
What some called neo chasidus is dancing and singing at a kumzits with food and alcohol while learning a bit of kabalah and not really understanding it. Chasidus isn’t something you just become; it’s a level that most people don’t reach.July 5, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2103442akupermaParticipant
“neo” means “new”, and there is a long history of people trying to invent a “new” version of Yiddishkeit, that would allow them to believe they are some connections to Torah and to the Ribbono shel Olam, while still having fun and the ability to live well. Probably the most successful “neo” versions of yiddishkeit are Christianity and Islam (the former clearly founded by OTD Yidden, the latter by mostly non-Jewish wannabees). More recently, the Reform movements and the Zionists are all attempts to break away from Torah (for the most part), while still claiming to be Jewish – if you study the results over the last two centuries, they have clearly failed in the “Jewish” part, but have been quite successful and building affluent lives, which was their first goal. The English expression for the “neo” movement is “having you cake and eating it to” (and wanting to still be Yid while throwing off inconvenience of Yiddishkeit is equally impossible).July 5, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2103440KuvultParticipant
My concern is so many Frum feel Tikun Olam was hijacked by the Reform that they’ll go out of their way to avoid it. Tikun Olam is not a social justice crusade of the Reform. It’s the purpose of Yiddishkeit.
There’s an old historic cemetery (not many Frum buried there) here with constantly accumulating trash. Many Non-Frum groups take turns cleaning it up. Frum boys also take turns. Can you appreciate the visual when Non-Frum media posts pictures of Non-Frum volunteers and then there’s also a group of boys with Yarmulkes and Tzitzis also helping to clean? It says we’re all one people, we’re all in this together, we all need to take care of each other. Perhaps this explains why, as a major Frum author wrote, here the Non-Frum support the Frum at a much higher rate than anywhere else.July 5, 2022 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2103460besalelParticipant
Neo Hasidism is a movement that began in the 1960’s among the conservative movement. it has nothing to do with rabbi weinberger. also, calling rabbi weinberger by the term”of yeshiva university” is a bit of a misnomer. Rabbi Weinberger is no more “of YU” than Rav Shimon Shkop.July 5, 2022 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2103466Reb EliezerParticipant
The Chasam Sofer Shut O’CH 80 questions why don’t we light late like the Rabbenu Tam. Could be that by a bris as in SA YD 266 Shach s’k 11, if the child is born within the 72 minutes we don’t make the bris on shabbos but push it away to the next day. In order to satisfy everyone, the Rabonon got together to light early erev shabbos and wait 72 minutes motzei shabbos or some 50 minures like Rav Moshe. The Geonim pasken that 13 1/2 minutes after shkia (3/4 of a mil, 18) starts bein hashmoshas after which is night. The Rabbenu Tam’s view is that there is another shkia and 72 minutes after is night so 58 1/2 minutes after the first shkia is ben hashmoshas. The Yereim, Rebbi Eliezer Mimetz’s view is that 13 1/2 minutes before shkiah is ben hashmoshas which we follow erev shabbos taking a mil 24 min and 3/4 is 18.July 5, 2022 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #2103463GadolhadorahParticipant
So for those who feel that “neo-orthodoxy” has taken yiddeshkeit in the wrong direction, you may want to consider davening at Klal Kol Chumos where everyone is encouraged to find the most lenient psak and share with the other members of the shul. In contrast to the more restrictive and outdated concept of “aseh lcha rav” (aka establish a relationship with ONE Rav and follow his directives) members of the KKC are encouraged to be more accepting and inclusive and arbitrage between different poskim based on who provides the “right answer”.July 5, 2022 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2103497crazy horseParticipant
Gadolhadorah, I did say I’m not talking about modern orthodoxy.
I’ll get into specifics, like people who say you have to wash on one slice, or cholov stam doesn’t apply today, you can no longer eat chodosh, (the only heter was in Europe).
People corrupting the meaning of betochon and hishtadlis.
You can no longer work today and have to stay in Kollel forever.
The people who claim shaitels can no longer be worn, because old shaitels were fake looking, (plastic only started being widely used in the 60s).
used your imagination I can’t spend all day going through every halacha.July 5, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2103509Avram in MDParticipant
“My point is Neo orthodoxy is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think it’s important to recognize it’s existence.”
I don’t think it’s a bad thing either. And from my perspective, there’s nothing “neo” about it; it’s just Orthodoxy, or rather, our desire to serve Hashem the best we can. People are taking on more chumros because they are increasingly able to. Rabbeinu Tam tefillin more are easily available to get. An increase in availability and variety of cholov Yisroel products makes it easier to keep. Etc.July 5, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2103511Avram in MDParticipant
“I’ll get into specifics, like people who say you have to wash on one slice”
That’s not a chumra, that’s an issue of the nature of pizza and how we eat it.
“or cholov stam doesn’t apply today”
I believe the OU now relies on the Pri Chodosh rather than R’ Moshe’s original heter, so there has been a change in application that may impact people’s choices. That said, many are keeping C”Y as a “chumra” (i.e., they eat C”Y but are not makpid on keilim) because there is increased availability of C”Y products.
“You can no longer work today and have to stay in Kollel forever.”
Tempest in a tea pot.
“The people who claim shaitels can no longer be worn, because old shaitels were fake looking, (plastic only started being widely used in the 60s).”
There’s plenty of sheitels being worn out there. Another tempest in a tea pot.July 5, 2022 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #2103508GefilteFishParticipant
The term “Neo-orthodox” refers to a movement of Christianity.
According to the Wikipedia page,
“Neo-orthodoxy strongly emphasises the revelation of God by God as the source of Christian doctrine. This is in contrast to natural theology, whose proponents include Thomas Aquinas, who states that knowledge of God can be gained through a combination of observation of nature and human reason; the issue remains a controversial topic within some circles of Christianity to this day.”
In other words, It’s insisting that revelation (what we express as maamad har sinai and Kabolas Hatorah) is more important than “human reason” and philosophizing.
As applied to Judaism, it would seem to be the approach of Rav Hirsch against that of (lehavdil) Moses mendelsohn.
And today, it would be those who follow “traditional Orthodox Judaism” vs the “Rational orthodox” or the “Open Orthodox.”
As Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik zatza”l expressed numerous times, Judaism requires surrendering to Hashem- to recognize that our thoughts and desires count only up to a certain point, but ultimately must give way to the Truth as revealed by Hashem.
So both Modern Orthodox (as expressed through talmidim of Rav J.B. like Rav Willig shlita and others) and “Chareidi Orthodox” are both examples of Neo-Orthodoxy, regardless of the specific positions of “being frummer than previous generations.”
It seems like you are taking the concept of Neo-Orthodoxy but redefining the term. I’m not sure what you gain by doing so; if anything, it would seem to add confusion.
Perhaps keep the term according to the original meaning, and create a new term for the situation you are describing?July 5, 2022 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2103514GefilteFishParticipant
I also think there is a major need to pay attention to nuance.
There are multiple examples of differences between today’s orthodoxy and previous generations.
They can be categorized in (at least) the following way:
1) Instead of local shtetl rabbonim, we now have major intercommunal poskim
A shtetl rav has his kehilla, and could posken for them. It didn’t matter if other communities were more strict.
But today, a va’ad hakashrus (for example) needs to make food acceptable for a wide range of customers.
That might require combining certain chumros, in order that all kehillos are willing to use the hechsher.
This is also the crux of the issue regarding women’s pictures in religious publications.
Since a sizable part of Klal Yisrael believe that showing women’s pictures in magazines is a problem of tznius, the magazine leave such pictures out in order to market to those communities.
Thus even communities which don’t have an issue with women’s pictures, still end up with “censored” magazines.
2) People are more knowledgeable.
There were certain areas where halacha was unfortunately not being kept in Europe, even though there was no dispute about it.
The classic example of this is regarding women covering their hair.
There’s no heter for a married woman to not cover her hair.
Today, we have managed to raise generations of people who care about keeping these areas of halacha.
3) Relying on extenuating circumstances.
In europe, owing to many factors, often a minority opinion was accepted- not because poskim really held of it, but because the situation was “shas hadechak”.
Once we are no longer in such a “shas hadechak” often times those customs should be updated.
An example of this is chadash.
It’s not a question of being “frummer” than previous generations; it’s a question of acknowledging that the circumstances which justified relying on a minority opinion don’t exist anymore, and therefore the halacha should reflect that.
I once heard a shiur from Rav Hershel Schechter describing Modern Orthodoxy. He defined it as recognizing that circumstances have changed, and thus we need to apply the halacha accordingly.
Even though in Europe halacha alef applied, given today’s circumstances sif beis applies.
This is an area where we can have a machlokes haposkim whether a prior hanhaga was based solely on shas hadechak (etc) and thus should be changed today, or whether such a hanhaga actually was accepted as the psak and thus can be continued.
(Mishna Berurah often goes with the first approach, Aruch Hashulchan and Rav Moshe often go with the second.)
I think these three categories are perfectly understandable and not controversial.
4) Making new “Accepted guidelines” based on current situations
This would include new concepts such as expecting all bachurim to stay in yeshiva until at least 18, and preferably staying in Kollel as well, instead of having most frum kids start to apprentice by age 12.
This is a reaction to a variety of situations- the lack of yiras shomayim on the street and thus the need to be in yeshiva for longer; the fact that the average kid is anyway learning other subjects, and no longer is it acceptable to apprentice preteens; the amount of distractions in today’s world which makes learning harder, and thus requires more time.
This sort of discussion can be questionable, and different communities could have different stances. This might be what you are considering a “new” phenomenon which should be observed.July 5, 2022 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #2103521GadolhadorahParticipant
So does a baas yisroel need to be wearing a sheitel and wash/bench when eating a slice of pizza made with cholov stam within the confines of a questionable eruv on shabbos??July 6, 2022 2:53 am at 2:53 am #2103600
I think both sides have a point – yes, we can be more machmir in some cases where we were not earlier, and, still, there a lot of chumros accepted by some of the community with the end result being visible separation between that part of the community and other observant Jews. And, while some learned people here and elsewhere understand what drives the change, the vast majority of neo-O simply draw a line and see those that are not with them as beyond the pale.
In many cases, Sephardim are more sensitive to the ideal of having one community: whether they are trying to blend into neo-O by wearing black hats or into general O- by using eruv that does not correspond to Sephardi halakha (and chasidim will not use it). disclaimer: I heard a Sephardi Rav explaining this to his congregation, but I did not see him himself carrying 😉
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