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> sure daven, bribe, and run away.
I do not know full context, but here is a different take on Chofetz Chaim on the issue at hand:
Haredi Jews approached the Chofetz Chaim, .. to complain about the actions of the secular residents of Eretz Yisrael [who] .. had abandoned Torah learning and mitzvah observance. The Chofetz Chaim answered them.. “And they will dwell upon it securely and build houses and plant vineyards” (Yechezkel 28:26). He thus showed them that when it comes to building up the Land of Israel, the Prophet Yechezkel mentions houses and vineyards, not houses of worship and yeshivot. Obviously, the Chofetz Chaim, the great Torah Scholar, wanted synagogues and yeshivot to be built in Eretz Yisrael, but he understood that the Revival of the Nation of Israel would begin at a more basic and material stage. This stage would provide the foundation for the spiritual awakening which would arrive at a much later time.@always_ask_questions
that story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie. try learning torah instead of haskuleh nonsense.@Hakatan,
I love both the state of Israel and NK. Both have their sources and das torah. There are many paths and each has to follow their shikul hadas. Zionsim has strong roots in our torah,Many such as rizyna chasdim have a strong mesora to support Israel.. A gemera and sources or psakim in formal writing are not needed. Yiddihskiet is about mesora. Thats very strong in rizyahn. of course there are gedolim like R Kook zl who were held in high esteem by many prior gedolim in addition to many written responses that support zionsim. But the mesora is the ikkur bec everything else can be twisted and answered up aside for clear mesora.
Then there is also NK who have their mesora and are clearly holy jews. I think there is support for Torah vyoiah for sure. The question becomes if NK holds of R weiss and his actions. Bpashtus they don’t even represent NK. Is that the path of R Amaram Blau and R Katzenelenbogen? I am not sure they have anything to back them up. However the NK mesora has a source.
Lastly I surely don’t see the heter forthe so called “NK” to march next to untznuisdika ladies at free palestian rally. Its a tremendous pirtza and a smack on our kedusha. To stand next to prusta Columbia University students? pretzius Geeevald
somejew > story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie.
sigh. I see – everything you disagree with is a lie. You have an Acute true Scotsman Syndrome.
@always_ask_questions
no, I always point to published mainstream Torah sources, and you point to nonsense Zionist fantasies.Torah has integrity. You don’t.
>>>that story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie. try learning torah instead of haskuleh nonsense.
Mr Some Jew. What are you adding to the conversation by expressing your belief the story isn’t true? Do you have proof it isn’t true or do you just expect people not to believe it because you said so?
I don’t know if the CC said it or not but it is possible that he did. He did support mass aliyah and did support the building up of Eretz Yisroel. And he explicitly referred to the movement to move to Eretz Yisriel due to the expulsion from parts of Russia as kibbutz golyus. I vaguely remember his son quoting him as having said something about the positive that can some from the Zionist movement if the Yishuv in EY is reestablished. Nothing to quote me on because my memory is too vague but it would make sense that the CC said what he is being quoted here as saying.
somejew > story about the Chofetz Chaim is obviously a lie.
I already wrote a response but I checked last night but I checked in Kitzur Toldos Chayav for the exact quote the son of the CC said he heard from him which makes me believe the story is possible. The CC said about the Zionists “Tzu fuhn azelecher kehn epes gutes arois” (Even from those types something good can come out) He said it in the context of his opposition to Zionists in general but his support for resettlement of Eretz Yisroel
I just heard a shtikl from Rabbi Ribner saying that the menahalim who rule with an iron fist and have no mercy on children were kapos in a previous life. I assume he would say the same for neturei karta, who try top shecht other yidden.
@smerel
I’m responding to the comment that is pushing kefira in ikarei eminah and pushing another religion onto a Jewish patform all in the name of, chsv”sh, the chofetz chaim ztz”l!I can’t “prove” a negative, but if you want I can “prove” what the Torah obviously teaches about kibitz gulyos. And certainly the Chofetz Chaim didn’t consider the zionist project a positive “revival of the nation”, whatever in the world that zionist nonsense is supposed to mean.
also, @smerel
Thank you for looking up a meaningful quote, that indeed reflects the normative Torah outlook. So too, many Gedolim have pointed out that good certainly comes out of other evil movements and events in our history.smerel > And he explicitly referred to the movement to move to Eretz Yisriel due to the expulsion from parts of Russia as kibbutz golyus.
Thanks. I did not have a very reliable source for this story, it is impossible that context was stipped off for partisan reasons.
As to RZ, the famous quote that I think I saw in reliable sources is that Chofetz Chaim abandoned his plan to settle in Petach Tikva in the apartment that was already purhased for him (on rechov Chafetz Chaim) – that if he comes to P-T, he’ll go to Yerushalaim, and if he comes to R Kook first, Mishna Berurah won’t be accepted in Old Yishuv and vice versa. Says a lot what Chofetz Chaim thought about partisan fights.Chofetz Chaim seemed to avoid machlokes in many issues.
I went through 2 volumes of his letters and public speeches in 1920s Poland and he calls on people not to send kids to non-religious schools, namely cultural and such, and talks about various anti-religious movements in Poland, but he has nothing to say about Zionism as such.
Other sources say that he did not publish anything about Zionism until he saw articles saying that one can speak Hebrew without Torah and it is a maala, etc and Chofetz Chaim finally responding publicly saying that it is a mistake to think that EY without Torah will work. As to RZ, there seem to be multiple quotes of CH.Ch. welcoming R Kook’s son, of him refusing to sign up to denunciations of R Kook, they do not like they are made up.
I think, whatever the disagreements, we should at least take to heart Chofetz Chaim’s attitude of not loving machlokes.
to the group
re hafets hayim’s opinion re Z , it might be worthwhile to go through kovets ma’amarim by his talmid muvhak where he quotes H’H extensively.
yankel berel, what now strikes me is the lack of direct communications from Chofetz Chaim on this burning topic. He had an opportunity to publish multiple articles in the papers to publicize his opinion. He was very outspoken on many topics.
This seems more significant than competing quotes from people who heard something in private. It seems that Chofetz Chaim wanted to be the posek for all observant Jews and did not want to be part of the machlokes. How do we interpret this?
The Chofetz Chaim’s talmid, REW zt”l hy”d, made it perfectly clear that his sharp words were meant only for the original apikorsim, not their descendants. The original apikorsim have long since died out. To use REW’s words to pain everyone in Israel in a bad light is a distortion and an affront to the kavod of REW zt”l.
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