May 1, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #603201
At a recent rally held to celebrate a court victory for radical muslim cleric raed sallah which can possibly stop him from being deported from the UK, Meir Hirsch repeatedly praised alla and said that he prayed for alla as well. He also referred to Yerushalayim as alquds. The video ended with him getting the crowd to join him in saying alla Akbar three times. We must finally put a stop to this. It was enough that they were considered rodfim, now they are praising false prophets and G-ds how can we discredit them further?
As coffee room prohibits links, one can go to youtube and type in Meir hirsch the speech is 5 minutes long with the worse rhetoric at three minutes onward.May 2, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #872281Shticky GuyParticipant
The video was on the YWN news pages. It is sickening. (Not wanting to stick up for NK chas vshalom but all alla akbar means is G-d is great)May 2, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #872282
According to a T’shuvah in the Tzitz Eliezer quoting a Ran (I think from Sanhedrin 73), Islam is idolatrous and thus saying “Allah Akhbar” is, at very best, praising Avodah Zarah and should be Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.May 2, 2012 3:10 am at 3:10 am #872283
thanks Shticky I was a bit under the weather that must be how I missed it on the main page. But I am still dismayed what can we do to completely discredit these people?May 2, 2012 3:12 am at 3:12 am #8722842qwertyParticipant
There is reason why we and yoshkites use the word G-d but muslims refuse to use it because they want to refer to their own entity.May 2, 2012 3:29 am at 3:29 am #872285derszogerMember
What own entity? Islam, unlike Christianity (despite their claims), believes in Monotheism. You are allowed to go into a mosque but not a church.May 2, 2012 3:40 am at 3:40 am #872286
Sam2 and others, it is a shvere shita to say that Islam is avoda zora. Alla just means God in Arabic. Do not create shailos.May 2, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #872287HaKatanParticipant
Since, unlike Christians, Muslims do not believe in a Trinity CH”V, the Muslim “Allah” should refers to what we refer to as “G-d”. Given this, it makes sense to use a Muslim term when speaking to Muslims.
I also don’t see the gross blasphemy in calling Yerushalayim “Al Quds”, when speaking to Muslims, especially when you would refer to it as “Jerusalem” if speaking to any non-Jew. Al Quds simply means “HaKodesh” just as “Jerusalem” really means “Yerushalayim”, which is the “Ir HaKodesh”.
(To be clear, yes, it is *really* “Yerushalayim” as that’s Hashem’s name for it. Interestingly, it seems the city was of no interest to Muslims, as is well known, until one of the Pashas conveniently decided a few hundred years ago that Al Aqsa refers to a new Mosque on Har Habayis. But that’s irrelevant here.)May 2, 2012 4:30 am at 4:30 am #872288
mdd: If you saw the video you know that he was referencing to a savior for Muslims, praying for alla to bestow muslim rule and said that Yerushalyim is al quds.This was not simply referring to alla as another name for the creator.May 2, 2012 5:47 am at 5:47 am #872289
Mdd: I would agree, seeing as the Ran is a Da’as Yachid in the Rishonim and everyone assumes a Davar Pashut like the Rambam that Islam isn’t Avodah Zarah. But what can I do? The Tzitz Eliezer brings it down L’ma’aseh.May 2, 2012 6:24 am at 6:24 am #872290Shticky GuyParticipant
what can we do to completely discredit these people?
I think they are doing a good enough job of this themselves. They dont need any help at all from anyone else in this regard!May 2, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #872291pcozMember
this person seems to be more of a nut than a rodefMay 2, 2012 11:39 am at 11:39 am #872292shmoelMember
Abc: Muslims don’t have a “savior”. You’re mixing your religions up. Alla simply is the word for G-d in another language (Arabic). Akhbar simply means great. You can even go into a Mosque, since Muslims pray to the same one and only G-d as Jews do.May 2, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #872293
Semantics can sometimes be as important as the words spoken.
I agree with what alla means however context has a lot to do with speech and language. On the video he is pandering to the muslim crowd and is preaching toward the version of Islamic concept of G-ds rule.Otherwise, who cares who rules over Yerushalayim if it all is G-d s domain.He is begging for palestinian rule of Yerushalayimm.
Using Al quds instead of Yerushalyim has a tremendous meaning as it refers to it being holy in the eyes of Islam.If he wanted he could have referred to it as yerushalyim and al quds to signify its holiness to both religions. (to above that said al quds is no different then Jerusalem) Jerusalem is just the english transliteration of the Hebrew/Jewish Yerushalyim.
When refencing how he prays every day for the end of the zionists,the use of a neutral word such as creator or master of the world,could have been used instead of alla. In this day in age aluh akhbar is a rally cry for Jihad.
There is no justifying this RodefMay 2, 2012 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #872294WolfishMusingsParticipant
Capitalize, please. The common practice is to capitalize God’s name in English, regardless of the actual name/language used (as is the case with all names). Since we all agree that the Moslem God is the same as our God, it certainly is proper respect and courtesy to capitalize His name.
The WolfMay 2, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #872295
With all due respect, it’s a davar pashut that he is mistaken. R’ Ovadia also has a teshuva and says it’s pashut that the Ran didn’t see the Rambam and paskened the way he did from a lack of accurate information (which is clear, understanding as he lived in Christian Spain at a time when there were lots of Christians making up stories about how Islam is an idolatrous religion; you can find this all online). It is 100% mutar to enter a mosque (and daven and learn there too if you’d like).
Allah is a world which the Rambam, in his writings in Arabic, frequently uses to refer to Hashem. That’s all it means.May 2, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #872296
R’ Ovadia is in YO III YD 15. His conclusion:
???? ???? ???????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???, ????? ?????? ?????. ?????? ??”? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?”? ?? ???, ?”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?”? ????”? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??. ?????? ????”? ??? ??? ??? ?????May 2, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #872297TheGoqParticipant
abcd2 are you feeling any better? Have a refuah shleimah.May 2, 2012 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #872298
the Goq thankyou for your concern Boruch Hashem am doing better.Was nice of you to askMay 2, 2012 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #872299YehudahTzviParticipant
How about Kallah?May 3, 2012 12:21 am at 12:21 am #872300
Yitay: I hadn’t seen R’ Ovadia. But why did the TZ”E bring it down anyway? I’m sure he knew the Rambam just like everyone else does. He doesn’t even mention the Rambam in his T’shuvah. That aside, the Ran’s reason has nothing to do with the Rambam’s. The Ran says that any religion involving bowing, even if it’s to one deity, is inherently Avodah Zarah.May 3, 2012 12:50 am at 12:50 am #872301
there are mixed questions here:
1) is the practice of islam avodah azarah?
2) even if not, may one enter a mosque
one reason for considering islam avodah zara has to do with the black stone of mecca, which may have or may not have been actually worsipped at one time. and who knows for sure what its status is today. however on the face of it, the muslims do not worship the stone.
discussed in halacha is the problem that the muslims in some countries required the shochet to pronounce kal kabir (which means the same as the phrase quoted above. and I think it is that phrase they were actually required to say).
the quetions revolved around whether it is a hefsek if said after the bracha. not if it avodah zarah.May 3, 2012 1:20 am at 1:20 am #872302LemonySnicketParticipant
Wolf – “Since we all agree that the Moslem God is the same as our God, it certainly is proper respect and courtesy to capitalize His name.”
I disagree. The islamic moon god is nothing but a blood thirsty maniac who glorifies the murder of innocents. That’s certainly not the God I believe in. I think “alla” is just fine (IMHO of course)May 3, 2012 1:48 am at 1:48 am #872303TheGoqParticipant
Glad to hear it abcd2!May 3, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #872304yytzParticipant
I’m against NK as much as anybody, but I’m not sure this is the worst thing they’ve done. I saw another Orthodox rabbi say the same phrase in videos, and he doesn’t seem heretical at all — just mainstream dati leumi/chardal. I think it was Rabbi Froman, the main rabbi behind settler peace movement Eretz Shalom. (They’re pro-settlement and against the two state solution, but they promote coexistence and harmony with the Arabs in the territories. It doesn’t sound realistic to an outsider but apparently a lot of the Palestinians get along with them fine and like their message.)May 3, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #872305
Nitpicker: I believe there is a T’shuvas Harosh that says that the black stone is Assur to put in a shul, but not Avodah Zarah. And the Ran clearly disagrees with your statement (R’ Ovadia’s explanation cited above notwithstanding).May 3, 2012 2:54 am at 2:54 am #872306
Lemonysnicket, what you wrote has nothing to do with reality.
Sam2, again: the Ran and the Tzitz Eliezer are shvere shitos, and we do not pasken like that. Btw, Chacham Ovadya is not the only person who has dealt withe shailah. S.A. in hilchos yain nesech paskens that the Arabs are not ovdei avoda zora!May 3, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #872307
Sam – I don’t know what he thought. It’s shver.May 3, 2012 3:25 am at 3:25 am #872308
You are misquoting the Ran. The Ran does not simply say that any religion which bows is Avodah Zarah, even if they are bowing to Hashem. Besides for the fact that that wouldn’t make any sense – because we do that too on RH and YK – if you read his words you see it’s not what he means. He writes:
?????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????????? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?”? ?? ??? ??? ???, ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?????, ???? ????? ?????, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??????
He is basing his ruling on his belief that the Moslems bow to Muhammad, and not just a bowing of respect but a bowing of ?????. His whole proof that they are bowing a bowing of ????? is because you don’t bow to a dead person simply out of respect. It is clear, therefore, that his issue with the bowing is the fact that they bow to Muhammad, who is dead, and if they would not bow to Muhammad, his whole vort would not start.
The Moslems do not bow to Muhammad.May 3, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #872309
The word Allah should be accorded the same respect as the word God. If anything Allah has more chashivus, since it is related to Elohim.May 3, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #872310
Mdd: You missed my point. Why did the TZ”E say this? He knew the SH”A as well. My only possible thought is that he was talking in regards to entering a mosque. Maybe he holds it’s a Beis Avodah Zarah (because they bow there) but that Islam itself isn’t A”Z? I don’t know. It’s certainly troublesome. There has to be more to it though. He just (I don’t remember which T’shuvah precisely) brings the Ran as a Davar Pashut and doesn’t really go into the whole Sugya, if I recall correctly.May 3, 2012 4:53 am at 4:53 am #872311
Sorry I left out the source of the Ran. It’s in his Chiddushim to Sanhedrin 61b.May 3, 2012 5:51 am at 5:51 am #872312
Yitay: He doesn’t say they bow to Mohammed. He says they bow before Mohammed. Meaning they are bowing to G-d with Mohammed as a quasi-intermediary, which he says is Avodah Zarah.May 3, 2012 5:54 am at 5:54 am #872313
You missed my raya. Obviously he thinks they are bowing to Muhammad because otherwise he wouldn’t have a hava amina that they are only doing it ??????.May 3, 2012 6:10 am at 6:10 am #872314
Yitay: He says clearly that they’re not making him a deity. The fact is that by bowing in front of him for more than just honor they are inherently making him s deity, regardless of their intentions, which is Avodah Zarah.May 3, 2012 6:53 am at 6:53 am #872315
Sam2, after all the pilpulim, it is shvere, and we do not pasken like this. And do not give me all this “he also knew that S.A. or that Gemorah…”.May 3, 2012 6:59 am at 6:59 am #872316
If Islam is not avoda zora, how a mosque could be a beis avoda zora??May 3, 2012 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #872317
Sam – They DON’T bow before him. That’s no different than saying we bow in front of Moshe Rabbenu. It’s plain ignorance. Mdd is right, this is a very shverre shitah. It’s pashut that the halacha is like the Rambam, the greatness of the Ran and TzE respectively notwithstanding.May 3, 2012 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #872318yaff80Participant
Ich. I feel sick.
Just saw that low life be mechalel shem shamayim befarhesya.
Can anyone explain please how he can speak in ivrit. Is it not “the language of the traifene medina”?
Just another thought, what does that nutter live off? Money from the medina? or do they have supporters?May 3, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #872319
Nitpicker: I believe there is a T’shuvas Harosh that says that the black stone is Assur to put in a shul, but not Avodah Zarah. And the Ran clearly disagrees with your statement (R’ Ovadia’s explanation cited above notwithstanding).
Please explain. I don’t understand this at all. I thought there was only one black stone, a relic found in mecca. you cannot put that one in a shule, it is not available.
also, which statement of mine does the ran clearly disagree with? I was not sure what you meant.May 3, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #872320HaLeiViParticipant
Gadol Machlokes Shemagi’a Ad Kisei Hakavod.May 3, 2012 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #872321
Yitay: It’s the same thing as Christianity. They don’t actually worship a cross yet the Shulchan Aruch calls a cross Avodah Zarah. We either assume the Poskim are misinformed about the other religions’ practices (possible, but unlikely) or our understanding of what practices constitute Avodah Zarah is off.May 3, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #872322derszogerMember
Or OUR understanding of other religions practices is off and misinformed.May 3, 2012 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #872323ymbMember
thanks to an earlier post who referred to rabbi forman saying All Akhb as well i went online to see that.typed rabbi forman.the first video that came up you see an eldery rabbi from the shtachim,wearing tfillin, going to an arab village,after there was damge to one of the mosques there,shaking the leaders’s hand and shouting all. akhb. 3 times like the nk.and explaining that some people do evil and we do not condone their actions,(just like the frum jews do not condone actions by zionists)
but somehow this video goes unnoticed while the nk get all the heat..
how is that???May 3, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #872324
Sam2, for crying out loud, others disagree.n Plus, in Christianity there is the trinity. How it is connected to the cross – I do not know. It is a different shaila! And a Godol could make a mistake.May 3, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #872325
Nitpicker: The used to put up a relic in mosques as a quasi-“zecher” to that stone, which some Jews wanted to put into their Shuls (either because they were Over on Eichah Ya’avdu or they thought it would appease Muslims).May 3, 2012 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #872326
Derszoger, stop with the propaganda.May 3, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #872327
Got it. Thank you.
What I wrote about shochetim saying it I had read in sefer simla chadasha. (the review sefer constantly studied by shochetim. I am not a shochet, but enjoyed perusing it.) It was clear the they were in practice saying it, so they must have relied that it was muttar.
but some were being told to say it after the bracha thus creating the shaila.May 3, 2012 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #872328nfgo3Member
“Allah” is the Arabic word for God, and Arabic is the language of many important Jewish commentators, not the least of whom is the Rambam. Kaddish is “praise of Allah”. Arabic was also the language of the Jewish population of Eretz Yisrael in the 51st to 56th centuries. “Allah” is not a “Muslim” word, as Muslims speak many languages (including Farsi, Urdu, Hindi, the gazillion languages of Indonesia, and, c”v, English, French and German).
Neturei Karta is meshugenah, but their praise of Allah is merely a use of one of the many languages spoken by Jews, and praise of Allah is a mitzvah.May 3, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #872329HaLeiViParticipant
If you bend your wings far enough the right wing will reach the left wing. “We don’t Pasken that way”, “A Gadol can make a mistake”, “Technically it’s not Avoda Zara”, “I don’t like that Shita”…
By the way, if you want to undersatnd the Ran a little better, notice the line right before Hameshuga. He is referring to Christian saints. He equates the two concepts. Both aren’t believed to be a dieties, but there is a practices reverence that is god-like.
Pasken or not, the Ran is the Ran. If you ever learned Nedarim you have an insight into the depth of the Ran’s learning. To just dismiss his words, calling it Shver, is unthinkable.
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