New book – “HaChareidim V’Haaretz”

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  • November 15, 2025 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2472106
    Always_Ask_Questions
    Participant

    YYA> Your conflating naïveté with laxity in observance is another example of misreading. In the shtetl in Europe 200 years ago, or in the Middle East 100 years ago, one could “go with the flow” passively and still remain a fully observant Jew. The challenge of Haskalah and modernity etc. forced a need for more proactive education and being more careful about things that used to be taken for granted.

    I agree here. But even if you think that Sephardim were in urgent need of charedization, does not mean that it was natural for them and only tricksters lead them astray.

    November 16, 2025 8:35 am at 8:35 am #2472461
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    YYA – We touched on that before. In 1950, I might have agreed with you, probably would have said same myself. But look now at last 80 years of Arab world. This was not all zionist fault. They all went through socialist and islamist dictatorships, all non-Muslims either emigrated or worse, everything not agreeing with regimes tortured and killed en masse. This is all sounds abstract to us, but imagine ISIS taking charge of Aleppo Jewish community; Saddam prosecuting Baghdad Jews; Syrian Jews searching opened prisons in Damascus looking for long-gone relatives.

    In 1950, I might have agreed with you

    These events happened around 1950. Until then these countries were for the most part better to the Jews than Europe was. At least livable. Whether Jews would have had to flee anyway at some future point is irrelevant. That’s like saying that the arsonist isn’t responsible for his actions because decades later someone else burned down the same building again for a different reason.

    They all went through socialist and islamist dictatorships, all non-Muslims either emigrated or worse.

    You are again mixing together different things. There were no de jure sovereign Islamist dictatorships anywhere in the Middle East during the last century except for Iran, which had a completely different history and culture. De facto, Hezbollah has been the government of Lebanon for decades, and the few Jews who lived there did flee during the 70s. The other countries, post 50s, became secular dictatorships. They persecuted Jews only on the pretext of being “Zionists” or “Israeli spies”. Assad was actually better for the non-Muslims than most of the rebel groups were.

    everything not agreeing with regimes tortured and killed en masse.

    Jews learned how to keep their mouths shut under non-democratic regimes. It’s a survival skill that has fallen out of use in America, until the “cancel culture” people get elected.

    Saddam prosecuting Baghdad Jews; Syrian Jews searching opened prisons in Damascus looking for long-gone relatives.

    Again, this was done under the pretext of them being “Zionists”.

    See, as in Europe, arguably questionable actions lead to saving millions of Jews.

    You again fail to grasp that the only reason Sephardic Jews needed “saving” in ’48 is directly due to the actions of the people “saving” them… WRT Europe, I don’t even want to go there. הלא הם כתובים על ספר דברי הימים

    Do you consider Pharaoh to bear responsibility for his actions, even though Hashem told Avraham ועבדום ועינו אותם? Saying “well it eventually would have happened anyway” is not a valid טענה according to the Torah, and להבדיל probably not according to any legal or ethical system.

    November 16, 2025 10:54 am at 10:54 am #2472475
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – I agree here. But even if you think that Sephardim were in urgent need of charedization, does not mean that it was natural for them and only tricksters lead them astray.

    Again, you mix up the logical steps. The Sephardim IN THEIR ANCESTRAL HOMES were NOT in need of “Chareidization”, because their Mesorah and culture remained mostly intact. So they would be comparable to the pre-Haskalah Ashkenazim who could be Frum without learning in Yeshivah etc. The Zionists created circumstances that forced the Sephardim to flee their lands, and they proceeded to take advantage of their naivety to secularize them. There were existing Sephardi Chareidim in Israel, as well as Ashkenazi Chareidim willing to help. The Sephardic Jews fleeing their homes most definitely did want their children to be Shomrei Mitzvos, which was “natural” for them.

    You are following exactly the strategy of Holocaust deniers:

    1. It didn’t really happen.

    (But there are living survivors, external evidence, etc.)

    2. Well then, maybe it did happen to some extent, but fewer people were affected and not as badly as you say it was.

    (The before/after numbers of religious versus secular belie the claims about quantity. WRT to exactly how bad it really was, there are plenty of elderly Sephardim who would love to talk to you about it if you can speak Hebrew, Judeo-Arabic, or French.)

    3. Well OK, but it would have happened anyway at some point.

    (The Rishonim who discuss the culpability of Pharaoh don’t accept that line of reasoning.)

    November 17, 2025 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2472729
    Always_Ask_Questions
    Participant

    Yya, I understand your argument and I don’t defend anti religious activities. Still, your defence of Arab regimes is a sign that there are weaknesses in your position. The idea that it was ok for jews to live under “secular ” socialist dictatorships is very insensitive. Those regimes prosecuted a lot of groups not just zionists.

    It is a difficult question why zionists were zoche to understand the dangers of 20th century and others tragically didn’t. I am not proposing theological explanations, just suggesting we look honestly at the facts. Note that zionists were not always so proactive. It took them some time before they stood by jews in the soviet union, who were in harder and longer suffering than Sephardim.

    November 18, 2025 9:59 am at 9:59 am #2473434
    Yaakov Yosef A
    Participant

    AAQ – Still, your defence of Arab regimes is a sign that there are weaknesses in your position. The idea that it was ok for jews to live under “secular ” socialist dictatorships is very insensitive.

    Again, you miss the point. Those regimes didn’t exist in ’48. The “defense” was against your notion that the Jews would have been forced to flee their homelands at some point even without Zionism and the Arab backlash against it. Hundreds of thousands of Jews lived under dictatorships in Latin America and did quite well. The problem is the anti-Jewish agenda, not the form of government.

    November 19, 2025 10:05 am at 10:05 am #2474063
    Always_Ask_Questions
    Participant

    YYA> Those regimes didn’t exist in ’48.

    And, again, like in Europe, zionist movement acted in advance of the danger. Whether it is their political wisdom, siyata d’shemaya, random luck (that we do not believe in, I presume) – I do not dare to speculate, but we need to acknowledge the facts before trying to analyze.

    Comparison w/ Latin America is strange. Most dictatorship there count thousands or at most 10s of thousands victims, nothing comparable to 100,000 and more of victims in almost each arab country. And I dont know any sephardi, even most charedi ones, who contemplate moving back to any of the arab countries to avoid Israeli or American decadence.

    I am not even sure this denial of what happened with sephardim is germane to defend your position overall, it sounds like you just don’t want to give any credit to people you don’t like.

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