- This topic has 436 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
There’s a new Eruv that has haskamos from many Rebbes. Will the Flatbush Rabbonim get on board?
Did Reb Moshe change his psak?
But the facts on the ground have
How’s this different than the Boro Park Eruv built 24 years ago or the Flatbush Eruv built 50 years ago?
Lakewhut, your post shows a lack of familiarity with the eruv situation in Brooklyn. litvishe rabbonim(and most chasidishe rabbonim) do not, have not, and will never support an eruv that the majority of gedolei yisroel, maran rav moshe berosham, vehemently opposed.
@lakewhut,
Yes, according to Rav Moshe v’siyato, anyone who carries in Brooklyn on Shabbos is mechalel Shabbos.
If they are ill-advisedly listening to someone who thinks there is a valid Eiruv, they are not Reshai’m, but this does not change the facts of the case.
Ever learn tzaros habas in yevamos? Bais hillel held that tzaros are patur from yibum, and can marry anyone they want. Bais shammai held that they are chayav in yibum, and would marry those tzaros.
Without a mitzvah of yibum, ashes ach is erva and the resulting children are mamzerim.
The mishnah says that beis shammai would tell talmidim of bais hillel which children they cannot marry according to their shitah, since they would be considered mamzerim.
So if beis hillel can consider some children of bais shammai to be mamzerim, and still marry in their community otherwise, why do people ask things like this about machlokes haposkim? Oh, you consider those people mechalelei shabbos…how dare you think that they’re mechalelei shabbos…
According to rav moshe and the majority of poskim, this is chilul shabbos. Those that do it, are relying on their poskim; whether or not they’re allowed to do so…i have no idea. But never will the talmidim of the poskim who forbade it change their mind just because lots of people do it. It’s not a popularity contest.
As for sefardim, the bnei torah, for example in ateret torah, do not hold of the eruv.
Have the facts changed that it is not a reshus harabim mideoraisa?
Brooklyn now has 3 mechitzos around it. This was not the case back then. It is no longer a reshus horabim. This is fact. You can still be machmir. That’s up to you or your rav. You can’t however say that someone who does carry is mechalel shabbos
Does the Great Wall of China make that entire country no longer a Reshus Harabim?
hoo hoo: What’s Brooklyn have to do with it, regarding this, that you’re differentiating Brooklyn?
Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk are all part of the same one land mass.
If Sephardim or Chasidim hold of the eruv and that is based on a valid man deamar, then they are not Mechallel Shabbos, EVEN in light of Rav Moshe’s psak. Unless you believe in Gadolatry.
Hoo hoo, most poskim held that mechitzos wont help, but even if they would, the matirim said rhat things like traffic lights are mechitzos….very big dochak.
Elu v’Elu Divrei Elokim Chaim. There’s a machlokes whether there can be an eruv put up around Brooklyn. Most Rabbonim either held like Rav Moshe that we can’t, or chose to be machmir. However, there are those whom we can rely on to allow an eruv. If you hold of those Rabbonim, OK. No need for name calling.
I mean, Rav Henkin ZT”L argued with Rav Moshe ZT”L on an issue concerning non-frum marriages and was much more machmire. You do not see talmidim of Rav Henkin running around telling people that they are mamzeirim, do you?
Exactly which Poskim by name, on the level of Rav Moshe, permit carrying in the Brooklyn Eruv?
Reb Moshe, ztz’l in Igros Moshe (4,87) says that he argues with the Aruch Hashulchan who says that a Reshus Harabim is determined by each street separately and the platyeh is a RH but it does not mean that the platyeh makes the whole town one.
Yabia…see aforementioned sugya of tzaros erva. Learn mishnayos, learn gemara, and base your ideas on it, not on buzzwords popularized by ignorami online.
The other arguments are in the width of the street surrounded by houses with traffic lights and whether cars are included in the 600,000.
Aruch Hashulchan SA, O’CH 345, Rav Menashe Klein in his Mishneh Halachas,
See Yabia Omer O’CH (9,33) in detail.Repeating what is applicable for making an Eiruv:
Tosfas Shabbos (96,2) ד’ה הוצאה indicates it for carying out and there ד’ה הכנסה indicates it for carying in. Both cases is considered a מלאכה גרועה a weak melacha, as Tosfas 2,1 asks what is the differents carying from a private area to another private area where it is allowed to carry bibliically with karmeles (4 amos wide and less than 10 tefochim high) in between. See SA O’CH 345 There is an argument a public domain 16 wide 600,000 people walking through does that include cars? Reb Moshe holds they walk with their cars but others hold that a car is a a private domain for itself. See in great detail Yabia Omer O’CH (9,33) about making a airuv of tzuras hapesach. A public domain where houses are on each side might limt the movement Traffic lights also limit movement. Intersecting roads also are questionable.
The Aruch Hashulchan in O’CH 345 explains that in the olden time there was a main road where all other roads would meet. The houses were in an alley closed on one side and meeting this main road on the other side (movo). The main road had doors on each side but open at nigh 16 amos wide. This is derived from the mishkan were all the tents would converge to the Moshe Rabbenu’s tent where all 600,000 people gather and the wagons to the mishkan took up 16 amos.
Most agree that 600,000 is required. Rav Moshe in Igros Moshe O’CH (4,87) says that a city having 12 mil by 12 mil where this amount of people gather makes it a public domain considering it a platyeh godaloh. The Aruch Hashulchan says that each street is judged for itself.The RMA O’CH 346,3 says that currently all of our streets are considered karmelis, only rabbinical. This is the the view of most poskim and therefore we can make an airuv with a tzuras hapesach without actual doors. Most poskim’s view is that cars don’t can included in the count. We have houses on each side of the road with street lights which limit the public movement. There are other roads circumventing the main road, so the main road is not as important as it used to be.
Crown Heights rabbanim vehemently oppose the eiruv as well
Dear Lakewhut,
Enough. Stop. You can go use whatever eruv you want. I don’t care. But a lot of people do. And there is nothing you or I can do to change that. As I responded to you on multiple threads, this is not just an issue of muttar/assur. You could also put on earrings. But people will look down at you the same much as if you use this eruv. Now do you get it?
Dear Reb E,
Please don’t post all these inaccuracies on such a topic.
I agree with….nom? Wow. There are inaccuracies in reb e’s post, but i will respond with more derech eretz.
The rema was talking about the streets in his time; in our time, streets are far larger, and are probably like Mechuzah. There’s also ocean parkway, which has 600k people going through it.
n0mesorah, what is inaccurate? All this is documented in the Yabia Omer above.
Benefits of OOT for those looking for a kollel: there is usually just one eruv to argue about. I saw rabonim who pasken that eruv is ok, but I never saw them carrying. Is it a thing in NY area?
Another reason behind Rav Moshe’s thinking is that since Brooklyn is the place with the highest frum Jewish concentration, he did not want generations of people growing up within an Eruv where it is usual to carry on Shabbos. He rather preferred that the majority of Jewish children recognize that Shabbos is different by NOT carrying on that day. He did not want the Halacha to be forgotten.
Avira, does Ocean Parkway include cars and make the whole Brooklyn a Reshus Harabim or just that street?
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Rav Menashe wrote that he was told off for using cars as a chiluk. Et cetera.
Dear Reb Shlomo,
The opposite. Rav Moshe did not want to fully enclose any borough with an eruv because people would say that it’s not a reshus harabbim because it has an eruv. He advocated tikun eiruvin where it was not called into question.
Rav Moshe’s opinion is that Brooklyn is a Reshus Harrabim with out Ocean Parkway.
If I understood correctly, the Yabia Omer above agreed with Rav Menashe Klein ztz’l that a car is a separate reshus and not included in the count.
n0mesorah, he was not the only one excluding cars, see the Yabia Omer above.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
The point is that he admits that it’s his opinion and he couldn’t persuade his contemporaries. It doesn’t matter who else had the same idea. It’s misleading to build an eruv according to a self described minority opinion.
There are two smaller eruvin in Brooklyn. Why don’t you start with those?
Reb Moshe ztz’l holds that a platyeh gedolah which is market or a park having 600,000 people spreads all over the city making the whole city a reshus harabim.
For all those that yell at those who use the eruv – do you have Shabbos clocks on your air conditioners? Rav Moshe T’zal, only allowed Shabbos clocks on lights. His family still does not use Shabbos clocks.
Putting – Rav Moshe was against it because of what it might lead to, and most poskim disagreed with him on that particular issue.
An eruv is a far greater concern. It’s allowing widespread chilul shabbos deoraysoh, not something which is a modern day decree designed to prevent a situation where factories are running on Shabbos etc..
No comparison.
Its clear you could build an eruv that appears to address ALL the technical objections to the kashruth of an eruv but some will always oppose as a matter of principle along the lines of Rav Moshe’s objections of “what it might lead to” and other “slippery slope” arguments. Those who hold by eruvim will take advantage of what it offers and others will simply continue to be machmir. Doesn’t seem like the objections could ever be satisfied by the physical attributes of the eruv per se.
Gadol, it needs to be very clear that rav moshe did NOT say the slippery slope thing about the eruv. He held it is assur medeoraysoh, and has no tzad heter whatsoever. And the vast majority of poskim backed him on it. Some were on the fence but joined the prohibition to show solidarity.
And after rav moshe was niftar….people made the eruv. It was a chutzpah norah.
We don’t have popes in yiddishkeit
עני’ רוכב על חמור’, as we know that the meseches comprising עני – ערובין, נדה, יבמות will bring Meshiach. They make up for futile hatred by uniting people and bringing them close together. The Rabbenu Bachaya on the pasuk בפיך ובלבבך לעשותו through your mouth, heart and action serve Hashem. Each on the edge should be done through the center. Mouth with the heart and action with heart. Similarly, the center, husband and wife, separation which unites afterwards מחבבות על בעלה is the closest relationship. Second, יבום brings families together. Finally, Eruvin, acquaintances unite. In learning, these are considered the hardest meseches and help of each other in their understanding unites.
Yabia, we are commanded not to deviate “left or right” from what the chachamim teach us.
Or are you just going to continue regurgitating bland MO mottos and catchphrases?
Did you learn in depth the actual application of not to deviate? It doesn’t mean if they tell you that left is right we believe them blindly.
Aveirah, look up what meforshim say that means.
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.
The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both Bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
Yabia, actually, it does; read rashi on the pasuk.
Maybe, when a Rav passed on, we cannot confront him and it becomes a new generation as the Haflaah pints out.
Dear Putting,
i don’t yell about eruvin. Though I should be yelling at your post. Shabbos clocks is a halachic question, be lenient or stringent at your leisure.
Eruvin is an entire Mesechta in Shas. It was enacted way back in antiquity. We should just throw it out, for the sake of those who are too lazy to keep or prep for Shabbos?
Da, that’s not the pashtus – the peshuto shel mikra is rashi. Everything else comes later. Rashis pshat is how we view chachamim and it’s how we always have. Technicalities in halacha can differ, like any sugya, but the overarching idea and hashkofas hatorah is in that pasuk – they say, we listen.
DaMoshe: Even according to the shittas you quoted, you cannot disregard right is left, etc. You cannot decide to ignore it and not question the Rov. You must ask him for clarification based on your objection. And follow right is left, etc. if he continues to insist that you do.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.