New Brooklyn Eruv: Time to Accept?

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  • #2227537
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    What is the point of responding to every little nuance in the teshuvos, if we can’t agree on what was Rav Moshe’s core opinion on eruvin? Who cares what type of psak he issued? First we learn ghow he understood rsh”r etc. Then we see how he worked with it through the sugyos. After we can discuss how he dealt with the halachic sources. And then finally we can come to how he encated hos shittah l’masah. Otherwise, it’s just you against whoever wants to give you an audience and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion.

    You have been on this for years and you never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion. You only wish to force your thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe. Well, I am cut out for that and it seems like I have gotten to you. No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?

    #2227538
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The fact is that dozens and dozens of Rabbanim heard directly from Rav Moshe that an eruv should not be built in Brooklyn.

    #2227655
    youdontsay
    Participant

    n0mesorah: “What is the point of being evasive? Whatever your shittah is, you should own it. And say ‘I don’t know’ or ‘I can’t explain that’.

    Exactly my sentiments, when will you admit that not only don’t you know Rav Moshe’s shitos, you don’t have an inkling regarding the inyan. I have not shied away from explaining any shita of Rav Moshe, you are reflecting on your attitude.

    “1) Rav Moshe wrote something completely new, and we are left wondering if it is a new opinion or an omission from his first letter. Even though he writes that it is all explained at length in his teshuva, we see a new idea in the Flatbush letter of three million.”
    Again with the smokescreens. I am not the one who invented the number three million, Rav Moshe did. I do not have to excuse why he declared that the number is three million, even though he did not mention it in his first teshuvah. Go ask it of Rav Moshe, he was the one who wrote three million. This is a lousy argument on your part, and it clearly a smokescreen.

    “2) There can not be any teshuva that is about Brooklyn as then Rav Moshe could be accused of issuing a psak din barrur. Rav Moshe in 4:87 writes that he is compelled to respond with his opinion because he writes stuff about his own thinking. These lines are to be ignored.”
    Comprehension alert!! Of course Rav Moshe opposed an eruv, but he admits that he is mechudash and the poskim would not agree with him. Hence he cannot issue a psak din barrur. That alone should shut down all the arguments against an eruv. Rav Moshe realized that the poskim did not agree with him, so those who establish an eruv, according to Rav Moshe, have on whom to rely.

    “3) The understanding of the topic is not important. It’s all about what could we get away with in spite of Rav Moshe’s well publicized, thoroughly printed, and until recently, testified by many great chachamim. Anybody who points to Rav Moshe’s opinion, and doesn’t admit that it can be manipulated, must be ignorant.”
    Comprehension alert!! No. Rav Moshe is mechudash; therefore, if one can find away to allow even according to Rav Moshe there is no reason to object. Moreover, no one has a right to prohibit by adding to Rav Moshe’s chiddushim, since to begin with he is mechudash.

    #2227658
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “4) Rav Moshe doesn’t pasken against other rabbanim. (Except for thousands of instances that are convenient to ignore.) And if one follows those rabbanim he can still not be in contradiction to Rav Moshe’s opinion. Even though Rav Moshe told them not to build an eruv. Because what he actually said and thought should not be considered when reading his writings.”
    Gibberish. In any case, Rav Moshe many times does not follow other rabbanim, but how many times does it bother him enough that he writes that he therefore can’t issue a psak din barrur. Never, only in this particular case. This should be very telling. But of course, you never realized this because you do not know Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, and do not realize that there are major holes in the argument against establishing an eruv.

    “Okay, that is what I think you are trying to argue. You don’t get that I am trying to give you a chance to talk. I could crush every one of your mistakes with a dozen responses. But then you come with a bunch more incoherence. Admittedly, this is not a topic I know well. But you are so tripped up, I can’t help myself. You fell into every net I put out. You are completely oblivious to how the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy. You don’t even know ten percent of the eruv story. And whatever you do know that I don’t you do not want to share. This isn’t a machlokes leshem shamayim on your part.”
    Silly. Your arguments are demolished just by a cursory glance at this entire thread. You make grand statements and can’t back it up. You then continue with ancillary arguments and smokescreens to cover your am haratzus. You can’t demolish nothing, you simply are in over your head. Your insistence on arguing that the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy, demonstrates your meager knowledge regarding the inayn. Unless of course you are referring to those who are eino modeh beruv. How can someone who admittedly knows next to nothing about an inyan, wade into a maclokas and argue if it is leshem shamayim or not?

    #2227661
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “What is the point of responding to every little nuance in the teshuvos, if we can’t agree on what was Rav Moshe’s core opinion on eruvin? Who cares what type of psak he issued? First we learn ghow he understood rsh”r etc. Then we see how he worked with it through the sugyos. After we can discuss how he dealt with the halachic sources. And then finally we can come to how he encated hos shittah l’masah. Otherwise, it’s just you against whoever wants to give you an audience and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion.”
    To those who are trying to play catch up, but made up their mind already. it would seem that it has nothing to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion. However, it very much does have to do with his opinion. As I mentioned there are three reasons to allow an eruv according to Rav Moshe. Your argument regarding a few words in 4:87, has absolutely nothing to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion, it is your opinion only.

    “You have been on this for years and you never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion. You only wish to force your thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe. Well, I am cut out for that and it seems like I have gotten to you. No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?”
    Your the one who takes many days to answer, because you are playing catch up, but I am the one who does not bother to respond? In any case, what is it I, “never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion.” Or is it that I, “only wish to force [my] thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe? Oh. this story regarding Rav Dovid is probably another one of your bubbe meises. It probably never happened. No one harasses anyone to carry with an eruv. It is those who oppose who harasse those who carry.

    #2227662
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “The fact is that dozens and dozens of Rabbanim heard directly from Rav Moshe that an eruv should not be built in Brooklyn.”
    There are no dozens and dozens of rabbanim who spoke to Rav Moshe regarding eruvin. There aren’t that many rabbanim who know the inyan.

    #2227663
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?”
    In any case your probably mixing up the story. Someone I know attended a wedding, which he heard Rav Belsky would be present at, and brought along IM, O.C. 2, because Rav Belsky argued that pirtzos esser is d’Oraysa. This individual proceeded to show Rav Belsky that Rav Moshe maintained that it is only d’rabbanan. To which Rav Belsky argued that a pirtzah of 16 amos would be d’Oraysa. However, this individual rebutted that Rav Moshe did not say that, and no one really maintains as such, as it is a shiur reshus harabbim not a shiur pirtzah. Suffice to say it was not pleasant, even though this individual was really seeking answers, and not to be antagonistic.

    #2228475
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    “There are no dozens and dozens of rabbanim who spoke to Rav Moshe regarding eruvin.”

    At one point, almost every rav in Brooklyn was asking Rav Moshe if he supported an eruv. Misrepresenting gedolim to the public is not a new problem.

    “There aren’t that many rabbanim who know the inyan.”

    Uh, okay. But Rav Moshe did write a very clear teshuva that any competent Ben Torah can decipher.

    PS I wonder what ‘the inyan’ means to you.

    #2228477
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    “Your the one who takes many days to answer, because you are playing catch up, but I am the one who does not bother to respond?”

    Sorry, but I am not always online.

    There is nothing for ne to catch here. We got to the end. You aren’t saying anything.

    You are the one who has not responded to anyone who really knew their stuff. Throughout this site, on a bunch of different threads, going back years. Now you are stuck with me.

    And, the point that Rav Elyashiv et all backed Reb Dovid, and nobody was able to get him to agree with their arguments, is a sore point to any gibberish you dream up. A sore point which you never addressed.

    #2228479
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    Rav Moshe’s shitah is clear and constant: Six hundred thousand people on a street makes that street a reshus harrabim. The same number out and about in a city, makes the public places of the city into a reshus harrabim. Precisely how to count a city is of no consequence, because if it is close than we are unable to guarantee that the eruv will contribute to shemiras Shabbos and are exempt from building one.

    Now to our little mudfest:

    1) So you are left wondering about Rav Moshe’s intentions with his Flatbush teshuva. Because there is no chance that you are wrong here. But you won’t wonder about it either. We should ask Rav Moshe to wonder for you.

    2) Rav Moshe writes that he is forced to write about Flatbush, because people think he permitted it. What compelled him? Is it possible that he believed that people are not allowed to carry with an eruv based on a mistaken belief of Rav Moshe’s permission?

    You can split hairs now.

    3) Comprehension alert! Without Rav Moshe’s opinion, there is less of a reason to build an eruv in a mega-city. The simple understanding was that a population of 600,000 makes the city into a rsh”r. Rav Moshe is bringing about new ways to be lenient throughout his teshuvos. So take away his chiddush and try to use the Aruch Hashulchan. (Except that the Aruch Hashulchan is trying to incorporate the Mishkanos Yaakov into the accepted halacha. [Meaning, that the sugyos go according to the Mishkanos Yaakov, but the halachah is different because of his chiddush.] But I doubt that matter is a factor to you.) Nobody is adding to Rav Moshe’s opinion to forbid the eruv. And there is no way around it. His shitah is very straightforward, as it appears in chelek aleph.

    4) A thourough review of Rav Moshe’s writings, show that many of his rulings were not given with a horaah lasos. Rav Moshe was very humble about forcing his opinion on others.

    You can still build any eruv you want. You can even put up an eruv in a bungalow colony, that nobody will check for years on end. You can build an eruv without knowing the topography. I don’t care. But don’t go around proclaiming that Rav Moshe’s shittah is not definitive, when Rav Moshe clearly says it is. As he told Reb Tuvya, you can disagree with him. But at least make the effort to properly understand the teshuva.

    #2228481
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    In case anyone is trying to follow, I understand that Rav Moshe was saying that in his opinion they couldn’t build an eruv. And if they do, it should not be used. But if they wanted to build an eruv, based on someone else, he wouldn’t stop them.

    It undermines the Brooklyn Eruv that they keep trying to align themselves with Rav Moshe.

    #2228482
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    “Your insistence on arguing that the eruv battle aligned with the attack on Orthodoxy, demonstrates your meager knowledge regarding the inayn.”

    You have no clue what I am talking about, yet you invoke the mysterious ‘inyan’ again.

    If anybody cares to know, in between the first teshuva and the Flatbush teshuva, Conservative Judaism started driving on Shabbos and abandoned their ‘eruv until the suburbs’ project. For further information, you can still find all kinds of silliness among Conservative teshuvos written this year about the concept of eruvin.

    Dear Youdont,

    I am not arguing that people should not use eruvin because of this battle. I’m pointing out that there were brilliant minds pushing for eruvin at this time, that were not long for Orthodoxy.

    #2228672
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “At one point, almost every rav in Brooklyn was asking Rav Moshe if he supported an eruv. Misrepresenting gedolim to the public is not a new problem.”
    Simply untrue. They just followed the askanim who talked them into signing.

    “Uh, okay. But Rav Moshe did write a very clear teshuva that any competent Ben Torah can decipher.”
    Uh, OK. But most did not bother to really learn through them, and many did not fully understand it. Even more so, they definitely do not know the other shitos.

    “PS I wonder what ‘the inyan’ means to you.”
    What you do not know.

    #2228675
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “Sorry, but I am not always online.”
    You are clearly playing catch up. It is very noticeable how you keep changing your arguments. You simply never learnt the inyan, and now think that learning through Rav Moshe’s teshuvos makes you a mumchah. You do not even understand Rav Moshe’s teshuvos.

    “There is nothing for ne to catch here. We got to the end. You aren’t saying anything.”
    Incredible. You go on a long discursive regarding Rav Moshe’s teshuvos, clearly learning them for the first time, but claim that you have nothing to catch up! Because you simply do not know what you are talking about does not mean that I have not added to the conversation.

    “You are the one who has not responded to anyone who really knew their stuff. Throughout this site, on a bunch of different threads, going back years. Now you are stuck with me.”
    There is not one issue that I have not rebutted. You wouldn’t know it if I hit you over the head with it. Stay out of things you know nothing about.

    “And, the point that Rav Elyashiv et all backed Reb Dovid, and nobody was able to get him to agree with their arguments, is a sore point to any gibberish you dream up. A sore point which you never addressed.”
    It is not a sore point at all. First of all we do not know what was told to Rav Elyashiv. Second, Rav Elyashiv has nothing to do with Rav Dovid. Third Rav Dovid never wanted to speak to anyone about it, and his objection is regarding the original eruv. Furthermore, today it should be allowed according to what he clearly understood from his father regarding shishim ribo (as he stated regarding Chicago). Fourth, the stupidity does not stop. If Brooklyn was to lose most of it population, these anti eruvniks would still argue that Rav Moshe ossered. It is total absurdity, Rav Moshe did not know the statistics, and was lied to by a Brooklyn rav, but his psak stands. Total nonsense. Never mind, he did not issue a psak din barrur.

    #2228682
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “You have no clue what I am talking about, yet you invoke the mysterious ‘inyan’ again.”
    We shall see if I don’t know what you are talking about.

    “If anybody cares to know, in between the first teshuva and the Flatbush teshuva, Conservative Judaism started driving on Shabbos and abandoned their ‘eruv until the suburbs’ project. For further information, you can still find all kinds of silliness among Conservative teshuvos written this year about the concept of eruvin.”
    Total nonsense. There simply is no analogy there. In fact Rav Moshe’s allowing an eruv in Queens is proof that you are just making up nonsense.

    “I am not arguing that people should not use eruvin because of this battle. I’m pointing out that there were brilliant minds pushing for eruvin at this time, that were not long for Orthodoxy.”
    Irrelevant, as the argument does not begin.

    #2228681
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “In case anyone is trying to follow, I understand that Rav Moshe was saying that in his opinion they couldn’t build an eruv. And if they do, it should not be used. But if they wanted to build an eruv, based on someone else, he wouldn’t stop them.
    It undermines the Brooklyn Eruv that they keep trying to align themselves with Rav Moshe.”
    Rav Moshe did not say that one cannot build an eruv according to others, and use it.

    #2228680
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “Rav Moshe’s shitah is clear and constant: Six hundred thousand people on a street makes that street a reshus harrabim. The same number out and about in a city, makes the public places of the city into a reshus harrabim. Precisely how to count a city is of no consequence, because if it is close than we are unable to guarantee that the eruv will contribute to shemiras Shabbos and are exempt from building one.”
    Gibberish. Besides you obviously do not know what a sratya is. No. Rav Moshe shita is not clear, and it changed over the years. You constantly lie about it, because you do not know what to do with the inconsistencies. How to count a city is stated clearly in Igros Moshe, stop lying about it. In fact Rav Dovid agreed that his fathers shita is three million, when he allowed the Chicago eruv. In fact, the absurdity was on full display in Chicago. The anti-eruvniks argued that they disagreed with Rav Dovid regarding his fathers shita. Only those who osser can disagree with him.

    “1) So you are left wondering about Rav Moshe’s intentions with his Flatbush teshuva. Because there is no chance that you are wrong here. But you won’t wonder about it either. We should ask Rav Moshe to wonder for you.”
    Childish

    “2) Rav Moshe writes that he is forced to write about Flatbush, because people think he permitted it. What compelled him? Is it possible that he believed that people are not allowed to carry with an eruv based on a mistaken belief of Rav Moshe’s permission?”
    That is exactly it. Nevertheless, he stated clearly that he cannot issue a psak din barrur because he is mechudash and is arguing on the poskim.

    You can split hairs now.

    “3) Comprehension alert! Without Rav Moshe’s opinion, there is less of a reason to build an eruv in a mega-city. The simple understanding was that a population of 600,000 makes the city into a rsh”r. Rav Moshe is bringing about new ways to be lenient throughout his teshuvos.”
    Totally incorrect. Rav Moshe understood that shishim ribo is conditional of the street, but then came up with his chiddush. So in fact you are arguing on Rav Moshe. There is no posek of stature that maintains that shishim ribo is conditional of the city, besides for Rav Moshe. Hence, Rav Moshe is machmir. Even the Mishkenos Yaakov understood that it is conditional of the street.

    “So take away his chiddush and try to use the Aruch Hashulchan. (Except that the Aruch Hashulchan is trying to incorporate the Mishkanos Yaakov into the accepted halacha. [Meaning, that the sugyos go according to the Mishkanos Yaakov, but the halachah is different because of his chiddush.] But I doubt that matter is a factor to you.)”
    It is not a factor, because it is not the Aruch Hashulchan’s chiddush, but only Rashi himself, and other Rishonim (Eruvin 59b). Furthermore, there are many other reasons to allow, such as mefulash umechavanim, and mechitzos.

    “Nobody is adding to Rav Moshe’s opinion to forbid the eruv. And there is no way around it. His shitah is very straightforward, as it appears in chelek aleph.”
    You simply do not know what you are talking about. Just one example: Pirtsos esser. According to the anti-eruvniks of course Rav Moshe maintains that it is d”Oraysa, but Rav Moshe maintains that it is me’d’rabbanan.

    “4) A thourough review of Rav Moshe’s writings, show that many of his rulings were not given with a horaah lasos. Rav Moshe was very humble about forcing his opinion on others.”
    Irrelevant

    “You can still build any eruv you want. You can even put up an eruv in a bungalow colony, that nobody will check for years on end. You can build an eruv without knowing the topography. I don’t care.”
    Sure and throw out hilchos eruvin. This is what the campaign opposing eruvin achived.

    “But don’t go around proclaiming that Rav Moshe’s shittah is not definitive, when Rav Moshe clearly says it is.”
    His shita changed, and his psak was based on incorrect information.

    “As he told Reb Tuvya, you can disagree with him. But at least make the effort to properly understand the teshuva.”
    And Rav Tuvia believed that Rav Moshe would allow the current eruv.

    #2235259
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Youdont,

    This is my first time binge-posting since before Sukkos.

    You literally have a contradictory answer to every statement.

    You use Rav Dovid while saying his psak is irrelevant.

    Rav Elyashiv was personally very close to Rav Dovid, yet you say he had nothing to do with him.

    Rav Moshe was very clear about his opinions about Brooklyn Eruv, yet look at everything you post.

    Rav Moshe wrote that he is forced to respomd, yet you say he agrees.

    I’m getting bored of laughing at you,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    I could answer every point, but there is no reason to.

    We reached the end of the debate last time I posted and you didn’t even realize.

    You have proven yourself a hypocrite.

    I will post it again.

    Rav Moshe clearly writes in the teshuva from 79 that it is all explained in Chelek Aleph. So clearly Rav Moshe’s opinion was not fluid. You just learned everything wrong.

    I could go on about Odessa, Warsaw, Paris, Chicago, and LA. But I will save it for someone who appreciates honest criticism.

    I don’t think I am right about anything. And I only know general ideas. But as soon as you entered this thread I saw that you were contradicting yourself. (As you have done in the past. But this thread was never really about halacha. You totally missed that. And it revealed to me, that you probably missed the halacha in all the other eruv threads as well.) So I took you to task. Once I realized that there would be no isolating your opinions from whatever anyone else posts, I started posting Rav Moshe’s opinion to hold you to some standard. I never imagined you would be so innovatively incapable of digesting Rav Moshe’s shitta.

    #2239370
    youdontsay
    Participant

    n0mesorah:
    “You use Rav Dovid while saying his psak is irrelevant.”
    Absolutely incorrect. I am only using Rav Dovid against eino modeh beruvin. I do not need to rely on Rav Dovid, I can b”H read a teshuvah on my own. I never said that his p’sak is irrelevant.

    “Rav Elyashiv was personally very close to Rav Dovid, yet you say he had nothing to do with him.”
    Irrelevant. In Flatbush Rav Elyashiv did not mention Rav Dovid at all.

    “Rav Moshe was very clear about his opinions about Brooklyn Eruv, yet look at everything you post.”
    Rav Moshe clearly changed his opinion along the way, so no Rav Moshe’s shitos are not clear at all.

    “Rav Moshe wrote that he is forced to respomd, yet you say he agrees.”
    The first part of the sentence has nothing to do with the last part. Correct, with the current facts on the ground, and without any additions to his shitos, Rav Moshe would agree.

    #2239379
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “I could answer every point, but there is no reason to.”
    You can’t answer anything you do not know the inyan.

    “We reached the end of the debate last time I posted and you didn’t even realize.”
    Clearly you do not know what you are talking about, hence you don’t realize what I realize.

    “You have proven yourself a hypocrite.”
    Oh, please please inform.

    “Rav Moshe clearly writes in the teshuva from 79 that it is all explained in Chelek Aleph. So clearly Rav Moshe’s opinion was not fluid. You just learned everything wrong.”
    I will post again, as you have comprehension issues. Rav Moshe in this same teshuvah changed his mind from chlek aleph, so please stop with your nariskeit. Rav Moshe needed to formulate, at this time, his opinion, since Manhattan’s metzious was unlike Brooklyn. I reiterate, in his Brooklyn teshuvah Rav Moshe only referred to his Manhattan teshuvah in regards to his chiddush that shishim ribo is conditional on 12 mil by 12 mil.
    Alas, I understand your issue. You do not accept that all teshuos in Igros Moshe where penned by Rav Moshe, but are afraid to utter this out of your mouth.

    #2239396
    youdontsay
    Participant

    “I could go on about Odessa, Warsaw, Paris, Chicago, and LA. But I will save it for someone who appreciates honest criticism.”
    No you can’t, you do not even know what you are talking about in your own back yard. I would love to hear you am haratzus regarding these cities. Make my day.

    “I don’t think I am right about anything. And I only know general ideas.”
    Finally you admit that you do not know the inyan.

    “But as soon as you entered this thread I saw that you were contradicting yourself.”
    How can you judge when you only have general ideas.

    “(As you have done in the past. But this thread was never really about halacha. You totally missed that. And it revealed to me, that you probably missed the halacha in all the other eruv threads as well.)”
    I reiterate, how can you judge if you only have “general ideas.” There is no doubt in my mind that not only do you not know this inyan you do not know many others. I doubt that you have much shimmush from poskim, and simply do not begin to understand the halachic prosses. It is evident from all your posts.

    “So I took you to task. Once I realized that there would be no isolating your opinions from whatever anyone else posts,”
    Again, how can you judge if you only have a general idea.

    “I started posting Rav Moshe’s opinion to hold you to some standard. I never imagined you would be so innovatively incapable of digesting Rav Moshe’s shitta.”
    You psted, but have no idea what he means. It is therefore, irrelevant that you posted the teshuvos.
    Finally, there is no doubt that the reason you did not answer most of my arguments is because you simply are in over your head. Hence, you argue that I do not know what I am talking about. Sorry, but anyone who would read our debate would realize your simply arguing because you convinced yourself, but are not capable of convincing others. Stay out of things you know nothing about, not even a “general idea.”

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