New Brooklyn Eruv: Time to Accept?

Dear Youdont,

What is the point of responding to every little nuance in the teshuvos, if we can’t agree on what was Rav Moshe’s core opinion on eruvin? Who cares what type of psak he issued? First we learn ghow he understood rsh”r etc. Then we see how he worked with it through the sugyos. After we can discuss how he dealt with the halachic sources. And then finally we can come to how he encated hos shittah l’masah. Otherwise, it’s just you against whoever wants to give you an audience and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion.

You have been on this for years and you never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion. You only wish to force your thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe. Well, I am cut out for that and it seems like I have gotten to you. No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?

n0mesorah: “What is the point of being evasive? Whatever your shittah is, you should own it. And say ‘I don’t know’ or ‘I can’t explain that’.

Exactly my sentiments, when will you admit that not only don’t you know Rav Moshe’s shitos, you don’t have an inkling regarding the inyan. I have not shied away from explaining any shita of Rav Moshe, you are reflecting on your attitude.

“1) Rav Moshe wrote something completely new, and we are left wondering if it is a new opinion or an omission from his first letter. Even though he writes that it is all explained at length in his teshuva, we see a new idea in the Flatbush letter of three million.”
Again with the smokescreens. I am not the one who invented the number three million, Rav Moshe did. I do not have to excuse why he declared that the number is three million, even though he did not mention it in his first teshuvah. Go ask it of Rav Moshe, he was the one who wrote three million. This is a lousy argument on your part, and it clearly a smokescreen.

“2) There can not be any teshuva that is about Brooklyn as then Rav Moshe could be accused of issuing a psak din barrur. Rav Moshe in 4:87 writes that he is compelled to respond with his opinion because he writes stuff about his own thinking. These lines are to be ignored.”
Comprehension alert!! Of course Rav Moshe opposed an eruv, but he admits that he is mechudash and the poskim would not agree with him. Hence he cannot issue a psak din barrur. That alone should shut down all the arguments against an eruv. Rav Moshe realized that the poskim did not agree with him, so those who establish an eruv, according to Rav Moshe, have on whom to rely.

“3) The understanding of the topic is not important. It’s all about what could we get away with in spite of Rav Moshe’s well publicized, thoroughly printed, and until recently, testified by many great chachamim. Anybody who points to Rav Moshe’s opinion, and doesn’t admit that it can be manipulated, must be ignorant.”
Comprehension alert!! No. Rav Moshe is mechudash; therefore, if one can find away to allow even according to Rav Moshe there is no reason to object. Moreover, no one has a right to prohibit by adding to Rav Moshe’s chiddushim, since to begin with he is mechudash.

“What is the point of responding to every little nuance in the teshuvos, if we can’t agree on what was Rav Moshe’s core opinion on eruvin? Who cares what type of psak he issued? First we learn ghow he understood rsh”r etc. Then we see how he worked with it through the sugyos. After we can discuss how he dealt with the halachic sources. And then finally we can come to how he encated hos shittah l’masah. Otherwise, it’s just you against whoever wants to give you an audience and it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion.”
To those who are trying to play catch up, but made up their mind already. it would seem that it has nothing to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion. However, it very much does have to do with his opinion. As I mentioned there are three reasons to allow an eruv according to Rav Moshe. Your argument regarding a few words in 4:87, has absolutely nothing to do with Rav Moshe’s opinion, it is your opinion only.

“You have been on this for years and you never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion. You only wish to force your thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe. Well, I am cut out for that and it seems like I have gotten to you. No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?”
Your the one who takes many days to answer, because you are playing catch up, but I am the one who does not bother to respond? In any case, what is it I, “never once bothered to respond to all the people who know Rav Moshe’s opinion.” Or is it that I, “only wish to force [my] thinking onto them by hijacking the Iggros Moshe? Oh. this story regarding Rav Dovid is probably another one of your bubbe meises. It probably never happened. No one harasses anyone to carry with an eruv. It is those who oppose who harasse those who carry.

“No hard feelings, but where you the guy who went to a wedding and harassed everybody about the eruv, but then conveniently left when Rav Dovid zt”l unexpectedly showed up?”
In any case your probably mixing up the story. Someone I know attended a wedding, which he heard Rav Belsky would be present at, and brought along IM, O.C. 2, because Rav Belsky argued that pirtzos esser is d’Oraysa. This individual proceeded to show Rav Belsky that Rav Moshe maintained that it is only d’rabbanan. To which Rav Belsky argued that a pirtzah of 16 amos would be d’Oraysa. However, this individual rebutted that Rav Moshe did not say that, and no one really maintains as such, as it is a shiur reshus harabbim not a shiur pirtzah. Suffice to say it was not pleasant, even though this individual was really seeking answers, and not to be antagonistic.

Dear Youdont,

“Your the one who takes many days to answer, because you are playing catch up, but I am the one who does not bother to respond?”

Sorry, but I am not always online.

There is nothing for ne to catch here. We got to the end. You aren’t saying anything.

You are the one who has not responded to anyone who really knew their stuff. Throughout this site, on a bunch of different threads, going back years. Now you are stuck with me.

And, the point that Rav Elyashiv et all backed Reb Dovid, and nobody was able to get him to agree with their arguments, is a sore point to any gibberish you dream up. A sore point which you never addressed.

In case anyone is trying to follow, I understand that Rav Moshe was saying that in his opinion they couldn’t build an eruv. And if they do, it should not be used. But if they wanted to build an eruv, based on someone else, he wouldn’t stop them.

It undermines the Brooklyn Eruv that they keep trying to align themselves with Rav Moshe.

“At one point, almost every rav in Brooklyn was asking Rav Moshe if he supported an eruv. Misrepresenting gedolim to the public is not a new problem.”
Simply untrue. They just followed the askanim who talked them into signing.

“Uh, okay. But Rav Moshe did write a very clear teshuva that any competent Ben Torah can decipher.”
Uh, OK. But most did not bother to really learn through them, and many did not fully understand it. Even more so, they definitely do not know the other shitos.

“PS I wonder what ‘the inyan’ means to you.”
What you do not know.

“You have no clue what I am talking about, yet you invoke the mysterious ‘inyan’ again.”
We shall see if I don’t know what you are talking about.

“If anybody cares to know, in between the first teshuva and the Flatbush teshuva, Conservative Judaism started driving on Shabbos and abandoned their ‘eruv until the suburbs’ project. For further information, you can still find all kinds of silliness among Conservative teshuvos written this year about the concept of eruvin.”
Total nonsense. There simply is no analogy there. In fact Rav Moshe’s allowing an eruv in Queens is proof that you are just making up nonsense.

“I am not arguing that people should not use eruvin because of this battle. I’m pointing out that there were brilliant minds pushing for eruvin at this time, that were not long for Orthodoxy.”
Irrelevant, as the argument does not begin.

“Rav Moshe’s shitah is clear and constant: Six hundred thousand people on a street makes that street a reshus harrabim. The same number out and about in a city, makes the public places of the city into a reshus harrabim. Precisely how to count a city is of no consequence, because if it is close than we are unable to guarantee that the eruv will contribute to shemiras Shabbos and are exempt from building one.”
Gibberish. Besides you obviously do not know what a sratya is. No. Rav Moshe shita is not clear, and it changed over the years. You constantly lie about it, because you do not know what to do with the inconsistencies. How to count a city is stated clearly in Igros Moshe, stop lying about it. In fact Rav Dovid agreed that his fathers shita is three million, when he allowed the Chicago eruv. In fact, the absurdity was on full display in Chicago. The anti-eruvniks argued that they disagreed with Rav Dovid regarding his fathers shita. Only those who osser can disagree with him.

“1) So you are left wondering about Rav Moshe’s intentions with his Flatbush teshuva. Because there is no chance that you are wrong here. But you won’t wonder about it either. We should ask Rav Moshe to wonder for you.”
Childish

“2) Rav Moshe writes that he is forced to write about Flatbush, because people think he permitted it. What compelled him? Is it possible that he believed that people are not allowed to carry with an eruv based on a mistaken belief of Rav Moshe’s permission?”
That is exactly it. Nevertheless, he stated clearly that he cannot issue a psak din barrur because he is mechudash and is arguing on the poskim.

You can split hairs now.

“3) Comprehension alert! Without Rav Moshe’s opinion, there is less of a reason to build an eruv in a mega-city. The simple understanding was that a population of 600,000 makes the city into a rsh”r. Rav Moshe is bringing about new ways to be lenient throughout his teshuvos.”
Totally incorrect. Rav Moshe understood that shishim ribo is conditional of the street, but then came up with his chiddush. So in fact you are arguing on Rav Moshe. There is no posek of stature that maintains that shishim ribo is conditional of the city, besides for Rav Moshe. Hence, Rav Moshe is machmir. Even the Mishkenos Yaakov understood that it is conditional of the street.

“So take away his chiddush and try to use the Aruch Hashulchan. (Except that the Aruch Hashulchan is trying to incorporate the Mishkanos Yaakov into the accepted halacha. [Meaning, that the sugyos go according to the Mishkanos Yaakov, but the halachah is different because of his chiddush.] But I doubt that matter is a factor to you.)”
It is not a factor, because it is not the Aruch Hashulchan’s chiddush, but only Rashi himself, and other Rishonim (Eruvin 59b). Furthermore, there are many other reasons to allow, such as mefulash umechavanim, and mechitzos.

“Nobody is adding to Rav Moshe’s opinion to forbid the eruv. And there is no way around it. His shitah is very straightforward, as it appears in chelek aleph.”
You simply do not know what you are talking about. Just one example: Pirtsos esser. According to the anti-eruvniks of course Rav Moshe maintains that it is d”Oraysa, but Rav Moshe maintains that it is me’d’rabbanan.

“4) A thourough review of Rav Moshe’s writings, show that many of his rulings were not given with a horaah lasos. Rav Moshe was very humble about forcing his opinion on others.”
Irrelevant

“You can still build any eruv you want. You can even put up an eruv in a bungalow colony, that nobody will check for years on end. You can build an eruv without knowing the topography. I don’t care.”
Sure and throw out hilchos eruvin. This is what the campaign opposing eruvin achived.

“But don’t go around proclaiming that Rav Moshe’s shittah is not definitive, when Rav Moshe clearly says it is.”
His shita changed, and his psak was based on incorrect information.

“As he told Reb Tuvya, you can disagree with him. But at least make the effort to properly understand the teshuva.”
And Rav Tuvia believed that Rav Moshe would allow the current eruv.

n0mesorah:
“You use Rav Dovid while saying his psak is irrelevant.”
Absolutely incorrect. I am only using Rav Dovid against eino modeh beruvin. I do not need to rely on Rav Dovid, I can b”H read a teshuvah on my own. I never said that his p’sak is irrelevant.

“Rav Elyashiv was personally very close to Rav Dovid, yet you say he had nothing to do with him.”
Irrelevant. In Flatbush Rav Elyashiv did not mention Rav Dovid at all.

“Rav Moshe was very clear about his opinions about Brooklyn Eruv, yet look at everything you post.”
Rav Moshe clearly changed his opinion along the way, so no Rav Moshe’s shitos are not clear at all.

“Rav Moshe wrote that he is forced to respomd, yet you say he agrees.”
The first part of the sentence has nothing to do with the last part. Correct, with the current facts on the ground, and without any additions to his shitos, Rav Moshe would agree.

“I could go on about Odessa, Warsaw, Paris, Chicago, and LA. But I will save it for someone who appreciates honest criticism.”
No you can’t, you do not even know what you are talking about in your own back yard. I would love to hear you am haratzus regarding these cities. Make my day.

“I don’t think I am right about anything. And I only know general ideas.”
Finally you admit that you do not know the inyan.

“But as soon as you entered this thread I saw that you were contradicting yourself.”
How can you judge when you only have general ideas.

“(As you have done in the past. But this thread was never really about halacha. You totally missed that. And it revealed to me, that you probably missed the halacha in all the other eruv threads as well.)”
I reiterate, how can you judge if you only have “general ideas.” There is no doubt in my mind that not only do you not know this inyan you do not know many others. I doubt that you have much shimmush from poskim, and simply do not begin to understand the halachic prosses. It is evident from all your posts.

“So I took you to task. Once I realized that there would be no isolating your opinions from whatever anyone else posts,”
Again, how can you judge if you only have a general idea.

“I started posting Rav Moshe’s opinion to hold you to some standard. I never imagined you would be so innovatively incapable of digesting Rav Moshe’s shitta.”
You psted, but have no idea what he means. It is therefore, irrelevant that you posted the teshuvos.
Finally, there is no doubt that the reason you did not answer most of my arguments is because you simply are in over your head. Hence, you argue that I do not know what I am talking about. Sorry, but anyone who would read our debate would realize your simply arguing because you convinced yourself, but are not capable of convincing others. Stay out of things you know nothing about, not even a “general idea.”