September 7, 2008 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #588150Y.W. EditorKeymaster
The following letter was submitted to YWN via email, and posted exactly as written:
Thank you for listening.
Thanks and Kol Tuv.September 7, 2008 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #998936JosephParticipant
Thank You for this beautiful letter! Every word in it is Emes.September 7, 2008 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #998937
‘Itching to be out of the yam shel torah, wanting that moment harder than kriyas yam suf to happen so that ‘
Hmm, pretty nasty generalization for a girl who wants to find a true Ben Torah. Well I have news for you my dear. The type of boy you want is looking for a ‘yam shel kesef’if not aprominent yichus. If you got more to offer than just the will to support a husband who will learn, then you have a good chance. Otherwise, you’d just have to luck out.
For now I suggest that you judge every boy lecaff zechus, whether he wants to study or not. Please dont assume just because he’s out for a career , he’s superficial.
Good luck to youSeptember 7, 2008 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #998938illini07Member
I agree with nameless 100%September 7, 2008 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #998939
Sorry, Nameless, but it is you who are guilty of the nasty generalization.
Besides, Shoshana Miriam has made it clear that she BELIEVES IN the material sacrifices she has made and will continue to make, not that she is “settling”. She is also not condemning those who make different choices within the Torah world. There are bochurim out there with the same values as she has and one of them was chosen for her in Shamayim; after all they and S.M. believe in and live by the same Torah and it is only a matter of time before they meet each other!September 7, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #998940
Well Itzik, I’ll have to disagree!
Not every boy is cut out for learning! They do their best and if they NEED the Parnosoh, working is the only solution. The Bochurim who are planning to learn indefintly or even long term, are looking for very specific type of girls as I mentioned in my previous post. It might not be fair but its a fact.
The writer seems to be judging those boys who are interested in a profession quite harshly. I suggest you read the post again. Besides, if aboy is mikayem the mtsvah of ‘koveah B’eitim aside from being an intellectual, he can be just as worthy . The Rambam was a doctor, remember?September 7, 2008 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #998941BrokerParticipant
You hit the nail, as usual!
I happen to have a son in shidduchim who is an exceptional masmid. I also was blessed with parnosoh Birchovoh, and this letter dont impress me at all! I respect thos who respect others, and the write seems to have a problem doing that.September 7, 2008 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #998942
It is clear as a bell to me that she means this only for herself; she knows what is ahead for her and wants this for herself, not for boys who are clearly not interested in what she wants.
The fact that she would begin with comparing the shidduch crisis to golus hashechina makes it clear who she is and where she is coming from.
Keep in mind that she is not a professional writer and I do see that she may be inadvertently conveying a tone in some places that does not match the rest of her letter.September 7, 2008 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #998943
I do know that there are boys who want to live in luxury while learning all their lives (and according to the stereotype they usually burn out and join their shver’s business in the end, or they are the characters I used to see in Bank Leumi on Kikar Shabbos watching the stock market ticker in the old days before Internet as they pretended to learn in order to stay out of the army or on their shver’s gravy train) but there are male counterparts to the author of this letter as well – they’re the ones we don’t hear about as part of a crisis because they are realistic as well (or we do hear of them after they leave koilel and become our best mechanchim and kiruv activists – or the next gedoilim).September 7, 2008 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #998944
Shoshana Miriam, do you think you would have different (read: fewer) options if your parents weren’t able to help? There are parents who just have to say no and believe me, they have as much chashivus haTorah as yours do. Some may be in that position from their own, unsupported kollel years, BTW.September 7, 2008 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #998945oomisParticipant
If 1) all the “good boys” are learning in Kollel and not learning a trade for parnassah(and according to the Gemarah it is a chiyuv of every father’s to see to it that his son learns a trade), and if 2) all the boys learning in Kollel can ONLY go into chinuch, because they know nothing about anything but learning Torah, then what is going to happen when the Kollel generation’s children grow up, also go into Kollel, do not learn a trade (other than chinuch)just like their fathers before them did not learn a trade, and their parents are in no position to support THEM, because chinuch really pays very little? And what if, btw, they are really not cut out to be in chinuch? Not every genius in learning can give it over to Talmidim. We do our children no favor when we actively discourage them from thinking that making a real parnassa is of little value. It takes money to pay for rent and utilities, as well as for the Yeshivah education that we want our kids to get. Part of the shidduch world should be teaching our kids the REAL facts of life and not the esoteric and idealized concepts that our daughters are being taught about being the money-earner in the household. There is nothing romantic about a burnt-out, tapped out wife who has babies to raise, and a parnassa to earn, and I think that many girls are afraid to admit that this concerns them, for fear of being labeled something unflattering and therefore shidduchly-undesirable.September 7, 2008 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #998946shindyMember
I wish the author of this letter much hatzlocha in meeting her bashairt. Save this letter and remember how much you wanted this kind of life, especially when you are married with several children and cannot afford to buy a new outfit or that gorgeous shaitel you are plotzing for.September 8, 2008 5:43 am at 5:43 am #998947
Does that sound like someone who is ‘INADVERTENTLY’conveying a tone?
Did it ever occur to her that those boys are in YshivSeptember 8, 2008 5:44 am at 5:44 am #998948
that those boys are in YESHIVA cause they want to be?September 8, 2008 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #998949
So long as she is saying fine by ME, just not for ME, it is OK (but not a stellar example of proper writing). She feels they are there for the wrong reasons as far as SHE is concerned.
This is a personal letter. If she were decrying the fact that her classmates are all looking for working boys when they should have internalized what they learned in sem or whatever, then she would be way out of line.September 8, 2008 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #998950
Shindy, I live very modestly. Gemach or catalogue sheitels, thrift shop clothes or inexpensive separates (e.g. Marshalls) and I can handle that. But there’s something else you may have missed. Even if the money sometimes IS available for the $xx -xxx outfit, or $xxx- xxxx sheitel, shouldn’t our writer put the money away for HER children’s years in kollel? (Leaving aside the point, will she ever be able to.)September 8, 2008 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #998951Feif UnParticipant
One thing she said actually was said better than others have said it in the past:
“On to the topic of the hour: learning versus working guys. After much thought, growth, experience, etc., this is my conclusion: The boys that are learning and CAN learn are on a different caliber.”
Yes, those boys are DIFFERENT. Not BETTER, just DIFFERENT. I don’t know if she meant it that way or not, but that’s what it is.September 8, 2008 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #998952lesschumrasParticipant
The letter write is only TWENTY years old!! I doubt that any 18 yr old ( the age she started shidduch dating ) is mature enough to know what she wants.September 8, 2008 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #998953
re less chumras: I think that there are many thinking, mature 20 year olds who can make this decision, especially after fine tuning things based on 2 years of dating.September 8, 2008 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #998954
Shoshana Miriam Bas Sorel:
Let me preface that I hate to post this. I only like to post happy things, but I feel a reality check is needed. :-/
I wish you the best of luck finding a shidduch. Unfortunately, I suspect you will still be waiting (C”V, I truly hope I am wrong) when you will come to compromise on something and only then find your zivug. True learning boys are either “Harry” (who are serious but not quite yeshivish, and may have gone to college), looking for money (with the hechsher of their Rosh Yeshiva, who would hate for them to leave learning after 5-10 years) or looking for Yichus. No fault of yours, but saving from the age of 13 (unless you have a trust fund) does not compare to a sucessful businessman who is serious about supporting his daughter, and there (as you have learned) are very few real learners out there, who would be willing to sacrifice for their learning. The best learners (which you are rightfully looking for) have always married the rich mans daughter (and nothing came of them) or the rosh yeshiva’s daughter (and possibly became a gadol).
If you are serious, then from your discription of what you are looking for you may want to date chofetz chaim guys, and you should have job skills that are exportable to Israel. You will also want to look for someone who is mistapek bemuat and happy to do so, as you will need it (and start shopping at SYMS, not Marshalls. Better selection and cheaper prices during BASH :-).
I wish you only Hatzlocha.
Re Nameless: Agreed, but she wants to marry someone who will go into Kiruv, not business.September 8, 2008 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #998955JosephParticipant
You are so off-base, it is mind-boggling. I don’t see one thing you said that is based in an iota of reality.September 8, 2008 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #998956klal yisroel memberMember
I’m not sure why people call it a shidduch crisis? And if we are calling it a shidduch crisis then we have to call everything else a crisis. There are many people out there who are don’t have money and can’t afford the basics so lets call that the poor crisis or whatever you want. For every situation out there are we going to name it a crisis? Why can’t we accept that this is from Hashem and each person who is part of the Shidduch crisis has to take care of it himself and see why Hashem hasn’t sent him is zivug yet. Every person was brought down to this world for an individual purpose therefore not everything that happened to one person will happen to another therefore it isn’t meant for everyone to be married at the age of 20. We have to accept what Hashem gives us and be thankful instead of spending time trying to figure out a way to solve the shidduch crisis. How can you solve something that doesn’t need a solution – its time to accept Hashems ways because after all Hashem does what is good for you.September 8, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #998957
Please explain what is off base? I guess it is possible that you found something cheaper in Marshalls than in SYMS 🙂September 9, 2008 12:04 am at 12:04 am #998958yiddishemishpachaMember
Dear Shoshana Miriam,
the reason that there is a shidduch crisis is because everyone wants to marry according to their list, no one wants to put any effort into a marriage. What about encouraging a working boy to learn. I don’t know what you have been taught but a woman can make a great impact on a man … that is why she is in this world in the first place. Everyone wants a finished product, a cooked turkey, and there is no such thing. Just because someone is learning, you think that is going to make him a mensch and a good husband for you. I will daven that you get the proper guidance before you waste precious years waiting out for Mr. Perfect. It is really really wonderful to become together, remember that, and Hashem has nachas from it.September 9, 2008 3:05 am at 3:05 am #998959anon for thisParticipant
lammed hay, you write:
“The best learners (which you are rightfully looking for) have always married the rich mans daughter (and nothing came of them) or the rosh yeshiva’s daughter (and possibly became a gadol).”
I disagree with the first part of your sentence. Historically, many of the “best learners” who married the rich man’s daughter did not have “nothing” come of them. Offhand, I can think of the Chofetz Chaim as an example of this.September 9, 2008 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #998960
Come to think of it, there is also the Shach (who was supported by his father-in-law, the Bach (not J.S. :-). You are correct that there are exceptions, but Chazal warn about those who marry for money (I’m sure Joseph, from whom I am still waiting for a response, can provide the Mekor)
“I will daven that you get the proper guidance before you waste precious years waiting out for Mr. Perfect.”
I’m worried (as I have seen happen) that she will not settle in the end and never get married, always waiting for Mr. Perfect (C”V). Please, if you are reading this, stretch your mind a little and try to find your bashert, not Mr. Perfect.September 9, 2008 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #998961cbdMember
I am shocked! How can you generalize and say that someone who is learning is better. My family has both sides, learners and workers. My brother-in-law is 35 and is still learning yet he lacks middos and acts and speaks with disrespect to my parents as well as to his parents. I decided that middos are way more important then learning and went out with all different types. I married a boy who was learning and in college at night(he learned after college until 1:30 am). He finished college and continued to learn, he loves learning! However, he has now taken a job -why? because our parents don’t have a lot of money (and i’m in college with a part time job, so i’m not making a lot of money) and he respects our parents, we don’t want our parents to go into debt because of us. So now my husband gets up at 5 to learn and then learns after work until 11:30. My husband says it is harder now then it was when he learned the whole day. I told him he doesn’t have to put himself on such a full schedule, but he says he wants his day full with learning. When my salary is enough my husband will go back to learning full time. So how dare you sterotype and say a certain types of boy are better-my husband has amazing middos plus a real desire for Torah. He is on a higher level then many full time learners(this a fact many chushuva Rabbeim have told me this after i was married)September 9, 2008 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #998962
She said a learning boy is better FOR HER!September 10, 2008 5:13 am at 5:13 am #998963
‘She said a learning boy is better for HER!’
I know what she SAID. But it doesnt take a genius to read between the lines ,,,,,September 10, 2008 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #998964
No, we should not be reading between the lines.
She’s just an untrained writer who comes off sounding arrogant in some places and sincere in others. That sentence above should read “but I’m looking for someone different”.
If, as I assume, she is using shadchanim, then her appeal really should be to them for setting her up with the wrong guys. Having had my time wasted by a shadchanis who was obsessed with height and must have calculated mine from the top of my best Shabbos hat to the bottom of the heels of a pair of thick soled shoes I wear in the house (how she ever knew I had them is beyond me), I know what kind of characters are involved in sheker diber kesef notel.
In fact the writing is SO bad that if there were no name given I would indeed suspect the letter was not authentic. But sometimes when people express very personal feelings they come out in ways that don’t always look good or make sense.
I don’t think learning full time is for everyone and in my community it is unheard of. But if someone really wants to dedicate her life to supporting a sincere learner who isn’t looking for a meal ticket, let her have her chance. He’s waiting for her since before they were both born!
I just hope she doesn’t plan to support her husband by working as an author, an editor or a journalist :)!September 10, 2008 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #998965intellegentMember
You’re husband is one of a kind. there are very few such people around nowadays. You should be proud that you have such a chashuve person as a husband. Realize that not everyone is capable of doing that. Some people in order for them to learn the way your husband does they require a free day with barely any other obligations. Be happy that your husband is so special and try not to judge others.September 10, 2008 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #998966feivelParticipant
very beautiful letter.
i know a couple
just before the engagement she insisted to him (and she meant it) that she does not under any circumstances want a ring. he was in no financial condition to get one, and was worried about it (he didnt tell her this, but she knew)
he told her on an early date that his dream was to live in Eretz Yisroel, that they should have guests on Shabbos, that they would not be able to afford much and he would have the glorious opportunity to give away his piece of chicken to a guest. she felt the same way. this was what their dreams were made of, to give away a piece of chicken to a guest.
they now live in Eretz Yisroel. he is learning full time, she is working from her home a little, they have a wonderful one year old son. they always have guests for Shabbos Kodesh. they are spending their lives serving the Ribbono Shel Olam. they have little money, and little support but somehow they manage, and they are always b Simcha.
by the way
he did manage to get her a ring, and she was very happy to get it
by the way
dont forget to remember, to really remember, to really know, really, we are only in this world a very short time. dont lose sight of what matters and what is HevelSeptember 10, 2008 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #998967cbdMember
She says that “The boys that are learning and CAN learn are on a different caliber.” I wasn’t trying to judge anyone.I was trying to make the point that learning does not make someone better, rather character and middos are what makes a boy on a different level. I dated different types of boys and many learning, college and working boys were lacking middos and were not on any high level. Middos are what makes someone special.September 10, 2008 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #998968intellegentMember
cbd, you are definitely right. But among certain crowds it is unfortunate but anyone above a certain caliber has to learn full time. Which means that those girls who otherwise would take a boy who would go to work now would not because the type of boy they are looking for would not go to work. Do you get it?January 15, 2014 7:50 am at 7:50 am #998969FriendInFlatbushParticipant
It is now five years later. So, whatever happened to the letter writer? Did she get married, and if so, to whom?January 15, 2014 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #998970apushatayidParticipant
not a lot has changed in 5 years, has it 🙁January 15, 2014 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #998971interjectionParticipant
“I wish the author of this letter much hatzlocha in meeting her bashairt. Save this letter and remember how much you wanted this kind of life, especially when you are married with several children and cannot afford to buy a new outfit or that gorgeous shaitel you are plotzing for.”
Forget the shaitel. Wait until she realizes she can’t afford meat in her cholent.January 15, 2014 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #998972☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The things you miss out on when you live on less, in order to focus on ruchniyus, are tangible. What you gain is not tangible, but is worth much more.January 19, 2014 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #998973👑RebYidd23Participant
Men aren’t marrying enough women.January 19, 2014 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #998974MDGParticipant
I’d marry more women, but I think my wife would mind. Besides, I think that there are state laws against polygamy. Although with toeva “marriages” now becoming legal, it seems that polygamy should soon be permitted.
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