No evidence it was racially motivated.

Dear Haimy,
You brought up seven(!) points of racial disparity or injustice. And you seem to find nothing worth changing. You are the reason for those that are destroying out of frustration.

HAimy: What is your proof that Mr. Floyd was a”convicted violent criminal” ?

Concerned mom seems to be the only one who actually read the thread title

Floyd and Chauvin had both been employed as security/bouncers at a Latin nightclub. The former owner of the nightclub has said that she doesn’t know if they knew each other, since their employ overlapped only briefly. She also said that on nights when the crowd was mostly black, “He would mace everyone instead of apprehending the people who were fighting,” said Maya Santamaria, former owner of El Nuevo Rodeo club in Minneapolis. “He would call backup. The next thing you would know, there would five or six squad cars.”

She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.

“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”

“Racially motiated?” Of course not! I don’t think anyone believes that the police officer thought to himself, “I’m gonna kill this <African American>!” as he put and held his knee on Floyd’s neck. Presumably, that officer had countless opportunities to kill people prior to this event.

What happened to Floyd wasn’t racially motivated. It wasn’t a lynching. But it may well have been a result of racism. We probably will never know for sure whether this specific cop has racist attitudes, and whether he treated all citizens equally under the law. This is not the point.

The point is that there is a racist attitude which permeates all interactions between police and black people. Horror stories such as Floyd are the most outrageous expressions of this attitude, but the protest is about every incident of anti-black conduct. It’s about the demeaning treatment they suffer at routine traffic stops. It’s about the presumption of fault against them at minor accidents. It’s about the way they are treated every day of their lives. Sure, it’s about the murder of George Floyd, but it’s also about the relentless abuse of huge numbers of people.

Of course, there is no justification at all for the riots, violence, looting, etc that is currently going on. These people are criminals taking advantage of an opportunity. But this should not blind us to the truth of what happened.

As Yidden, we should understand better than most people the suffering of African-Americans. After all, we’ve been there many times in our history. We should recognize that this is wrong, and we should say so. The Torah, long before the U.S. Constitution, taught us that “all men are created equal,” and enjoy rights “endowed by their Creator.” There is no place in Hashem’s creation for racism in any form.

What a rude comment. It doesn’t even make sense.

Wow, so if we don’t like someone’s comment, we can question their lineage?
Even the חפץ חיים only imagined people impugning others’ frumkeit. He didn’t anticipate us asserting about each other that we are literally not עמיתך.
I can’t help but recall the Gemara, כל הפוסל וכו…
Anyway, as if it were necessary, a brief perusal of some of Besalel’s past work pretty much proves he is Jewish.

Why don’t yidden realize that for every time a cop is mean to them a black is physically attacked by a cop?
By coronavirus we kept complaining that there were fines being given to Jewish stores. While I don’t what was happening with non Jewish stores, I did see videos of cops beating up blacks for not dispersing when told.
But no, definitely not a problem, no big deal, right? Ooh, I cop gave someone in boropark a 50$ ticket! He’s a vicious anti-Semite!
Yidden wake up! Blacks are at the receiving end of a lot of police violence, like it or not, it’s true.
And yes, their economic systems are terrible, they need better schooling, it’s all true, face the facts!
These Protest aren’t specifically about George Floyd, he’s just the last straw. The protests are about a general pattern of police being violent when they see black, of a constant lack of money. There’s a reason the riots are so bad now, more than in the past 10 years, because the low income neighborhoods our even worse off after coronavirus.
For the past 50 years african-Americans were Told they are the same as everybody else, but that never actually happened. The black community at large has almost no hope of getting out of the vicious cycle of poverty and crime without serious help from the government.

So you’ve been registered for almost 12 years. Other than that, it says nothing about you. I could certainly be mistaken in my clearly speculative post, but your original post is such ridiculous propaganda that my reaction is justified, even if incorrect.

Doing my best- i hear your pain but i think it isn’t fair for you to rant and yell at people for things they didn’t do, or things that may not quite have happened as you portray them. I am probably at least your age and none of your portrayal of jews is familiar. Did you read it? Assume it? Hear it somewhere and generalize it? It’s wonderful to always be sensitive to every one of Hashem’s creations, but not every criticism of a blk person is a condemnation. Its like the trump thing, if someone wants to say it was murder but not racism you see red and have to write that person off as all sorts of things.
Not fair. And a lot of your first paragraph is either not true, or not true outside your daled amos.

Someone in Monsey –

What could justify questioning someone’s Jewish lineage? עיין רש”י על הפסוק אכן נודע הדבר

Do you so strongly identify with your American political views that they define for you the meaning of Jewish identity? If so, you need to reexamine your life.

TLIK – The “thugs” (to quote President GHWB) who are rioting deserve to prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Overwhelming force should be used to put a stop to the riots, looting, et al.

This does not address the other egregious issue at hand, which is racism.

We can and should deal with both of these problems at the same time.

There is something wrong that some of the commentators here in the Coffee Room can’t keep separate the threads about racist police brutality and the bolshevic attacks against America (aka rioting and looting). No amount of looting justifies murder and a racist cop murdering a black does not justify a white kid “redistributing” the merchandise in a Lois Vitton store in Portland. What don’t people get about it??

Schnitzel Bigot –

I agree (as I posted earlier) with your general point about the mistreatment of blacks by law enforcement in our society. I, too, have anecdotal evidence to support it. As you say, anyone who talks to some black people will hear that this problem is so ubiquitous that it is a fact of life for them, והמפורסם אינו צריך ראייה.

Nevertheless, as I understand it, George Floyd was arrested for passing counterfeit money. This was not an unwarranted traffic stop gone awry. The police were called by the victims of the fraud, and they responded to the call. If it would have been a simple arrest, there would be no questions. I’m not blaming Floyd for what happened to him; I’m simply responding to your remarks about the facts of the case.

catch yourself – go re-read his first post and remember that we’re on a website called ‘the yeshiva world’. Perhaps you won’t see it as I did, but to me, his original post was nothing but an internet screed, seemingly straight off the pages of any of the various radical political sites. To me, it didn’t have an ounce of Torahdik tam, so, combined with the fact that it was deeply political, I was immediately suspicious. It came across as something any Russian political opertiive sowing disinformation would say. When something lacks both Torah and tam, you start to wonder.

@besalel

What does systematic racism mean? Most of the people talking about systemic racism also say that the system has to be rebuilt, that capitalism is inherently racist, and the only solution is basically bolshevikism. I don’t think that’s what you mean. What do you mean?

I am truly broken-hearted about this. While we don’t have evidence ‘this’ attack was racial, the officer has a history of more force with blacks, as well as several complaints (and we know for every complaint made, many more go unsaid).

And you should be furious. As I posted elsewhere, racism and anti-semitism are more closely related than you think. Both communities are looked down upon by your average goyim. Both seem to get into a lot more legal trouble (frum for minyanim/ building yeshivas/ Medicare or welfare) more than average white america. The only difference is that you won’t see a cop kneeling on a Jewish man’s neck. You won’t hear that police broke into a frum family’s house and shot an innocent woman (Breonna Taylor) because they had a no-knock warrant (their body cams were off, and there’s a lot of evidence that didn’t match the story they told).

They are right to protest. The only issue is the rioters. And there may be more blacks looting, but there are many whites smashing windows, setting off fireworks in a crowd, and throwing things at officers. They may be the same people from the “Other 98%” (Occupy Wall St) looking to damage corporate America. They could be frustrated at being locked up for so long and just want to destroy.

The brutality has gone on for too long. The police have protected each other instead of allowing the few bad cops to be arrested and fired before someone dies. Whether or not this is racial, changes have to be made. I hope it happens peacefully, but history has always shown that unless someone is greatly affected, change doesn’t happen.

Schnitzel bigot: I’m not sure everyone protesting is doing so to promote radical socialism although many are. There are vile people everywhere looking to hijack everything popular for their own cause and the vile among the socialists have best perfected the art.

I am basically referring to some of the things mentioned in this thread by some of the other posters – a system which unfairly and disproportionately exposes the black community to law enforcement. The system is rigged so that two individuals who lead the same exact lives, one a person of color and one not, the person of color will have to deal with law enforcement 10 times more than the other person.

I also love your username.

There is no evidence (yet) that it was racially motivated.

Nor is there any evidence that the looting and rioting have anything to do with George Floyds death.

Even if there would be proof that the crime was racially motivated, this is just one mans doing, or a small group of people. There is no reason as to why all other people around the country should now suffer because of this.

Furthermore, whatever racial inequalities or conceived thoughts people might be having, will not be fixed by looting and shutting down cities.

In fact, come to think about it, it will only make things worse. The lootings and riots are only obscuring whatever message the protests are trying to convey and making these activists all look like wild criminals that have no regard for other people’s property or life.

hey.. stop looking at me like I am second class or that I am just a thug.. ok I asked nicely, now I am going to break into your shop steal everything and beat you up just for fun.. Now you better stop thinking about me as a criminal..

And please.. let’s stop being idiots and kneel to other people as if someone has to apologize for being a different skin color than someone else. That is racism!

Many white people including many in the media and academia aren’t able to distinguish or consistently blur the line between thugs and black people. For all their “woke” talk, they’re the ones who consider people with dark skin less than fully human, from low expectations to thinking thugs have a “right” to riot. I watched this idiot reporter interviewing black demonstrators feeling so good about herself for being so progressive with NO CLUE how much most black people hate being told they’re “WELL SPOKEN” after they make a coherent point. Yes. Black people are from the min ha’medaber. Their speech usually correlates with their level of education. My black neighbor does not go to the demonstrations. As it was in 1979, 1991, 1992, Ferguson (I don’t remember the riots of the 1960s) the 2020 riots will hurt good black people more than anyone else. The thugs will go through what they stole and they’ll still be thugs. Finding success in life is hard work for most people. People who want to better their station can. No one can do it for you. People who want to even find a way to turn their lives around in prison. Some people have a head start. Some people get lucky. Some people get what they don’t deserve. But focusing on them doesn’t help. Sometimes it takes more than one generation. Parents sacrifice for their children. In some inner city neighborhoods kids who try to be good get beat up by young bullies and thugs. Riots won’t change that. How about the Ad Council run an unrelenting campaign telling (inner city) kids that it’s okay to be courteous to a police officer. Telling them what they can say to peer-pressure that urges them to risk their lives fighting cops.

Doing my best:

You’re not doing your best, at all. You are still accepting the choice to live a life of violence because of oppression. I reject that totally.

What I observe is that a black victim of violence or murder is the awaited green light to gather in large groups, and behave like violent animals. And there are pathetically enough people to tell us innocent victims that we have to tolerate it. NO! The reality is that some young blacks don’t want to make it in life. They want the government to gift them with their creature comforts and pleasures. No, I am not generalizing to race. I am talking about the rioters. There are quite a few African Americans who abandoned that life of dependency and hedonism, and pushed themselves to get educated. And they made it. And they are wonderful people. And working along side them was no different to me than working alongside whites, or any other racial, religious, or ethnic group. Not a single employer I ever had was in the slightest discriminating. The color-blind situation was successful for all. Everyone thrived, and the work was done satisfactorily or better.

But when someone chooses not to work, to live off handouts, to demand equality (like the imbecilic gibberish that AOC and her ilk blabbered), we have a problem. It is a cultural problem. This silly voice wants someone who doesn’t work to have all the luxuries of those that do. Why? I work hard for my money, and I give a proportion to tzedokoh far above my means. For what reason must I tolerate an angry black destroying my livelihood? Not one that is remotely acceptable on any moral standard.

Stop excusing this. The greatest volume of their “anger” is not real. They fail themselves, and want society to pay for that. Not my tax dollar. Get up off your ******, get jobs, have intact families, go to school and get educated, and you’ll make it. The exposure to police is not in the slightest related to police being racist. It’s the involvement in crime. Stop morphing the facts into something that fits the liberal narrative. It’s flagrantly dishonest, and nobody wants to formulate opinions based on lies.

Edited

Doing my best- i can’t figure out where you get your information. First point, i have no idea what city you live in but your description in the first half of your post describes how lots of jews live. We may not get targetted for walking on a street but we get targetted for other things, and pretty harshly sometimes.
But your second half… i don’t know. I think you read some articles about blck people but never met any. I worked 8 years in a school district where i was minority of minority. Jewish, straight, religious, voted republican. The “colored people” i worked with were wonderful. I small handful luved the craziness you describe but thevrest went to school, work, have more money to spend than i do (with half my salary) are thoughtful, and ethical. Some dragged themselves up from bad places but many of them had city college degrees, others had masters and doctrates.
I don’t think you are willing to hear anything that doesn’t fit your outlook but mist of these people you are defending are willing to agree with me, not you. There are lots more opportunities out there. And for those who are stuck, there are organizations working hard to offer change.
And guess what, you wantbto know what we would do if the victim was a yid? As if it never has been? When rubashkin was singled out oin a travesty of unjust sentencing due to being jewish, the unity video was produced.

Also, I work on a daily basis with a number of African Americans, some who I have a lot of respect for.

Whatever there is going out there, they are not at a greater disadvantage than my parents that came off the ship from Europe after losing everything, family, business, their home, and everything else. They had zero secular education, English was a foreign language and was exposed to their fair of antisemitism.

There is no evidence of systemic racism in this country as much as there is for systemic oppression by some leaders in the black and democratic party that would have a lot to lose if the black community no longer is the victim.

More importantly, whatever is going on in the black community has nothing to do with the people that are being accused of being racists.

Nobody said purposely put themselves in. It’s about pulling out or letting others pull you out.

What did the video accomplish? Did you forget that you said/alluded to the idea that if a Jew was victimized maybe we would behave the same way.

My response was that one response to such victimization was to create a music video. Not quite the same as smash>ng store windows.

DMB:

I haven’t a care in the world about whether they “respect” the law or not. And whether they pay taxes or not is none of my business. But these chayos demand the right to inflict damage on me. Their feelings are not my issue. They can chant all the awful expletives about police and politicians, and i wouldn’t bat an eyelash. But their conscious choice is to assume the “right” to victimize everything they wish, to destroy my business, to loot my merchandise, and we still have those who defend and protect this evil.

You are correct in noting that stop and frisk is irritating. But if these actions consistently yielded no wrongdoing, they would stop. But that is sadly not true. The stop and frisk produced sizable numbers of possession of drugs and weapons, and led to legitimate arrests. You advocate that we go soft on crime to pacify the cultures that glorify crime. NO! Never. The reason no one used stop and frisk on Jews in Willy or BP is because it would be an utter waste of time. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with crime. And as long as we reward any community for embracing and engaging in crime, it will continue. It is totally untrue to call this racism.