September 1, 2009 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1135202
This “new” rule has existed for years. I don’t understand why the Yeshiva World decided to make this breaking news.
And I don’t understand why the Yeshiva World posts something like this at all. Darchei Rachel is arguably the frummest ISRAELI high school in Yerushalayim, and many of their students are the type of girls who are more than happy to comply. This will not happen in any other Israeli school (proof: this incentive has been around for years and they are still the only ones who do it!)
And it goes without saying that it will not be happening in any American school, be it a seminary in Israel or high school in the U.S.September 1, 2009 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1135203
HI. I heard that there is a high school in Beit Shemesh with the same rule. Maybe they got the idea from the school in Beit Shemesh? Its the exact same rule. yes its an interesting rule but every place is entitled to have their own and if someone doesnt like it than too bad. Nobody would like to be told what how they should dress or decorate their house…. So just let them be…September 1, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1135204
Yes there is a high school in Beit Shemesh with the same rule. It is a branch of Darchei Racehel, so it understandably has the exact same rule.September 1, 2009 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1135205
Darchi Rochel is otherwise known as the “Snif” (no, not as in the sense of smell, as in a “
branch”)and as Yehuda G said, it’s pretty much one of the frummest schools in Yerushalayim.
Another interesting point of info-
Not only was in existence for years before, ready for this one?
It’s apparently a long gone phenomenon too!
not bad! a whole 3 page argument on history!September 1, 2009 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1135206
I don’t know if the incentive is still around, but I know someone from the snif who did it about 2 years ago.September 1, 2009 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1135207
a ridiculous and stupid idea,the one time in their life that every girl should actually wear makeup is their wedding day,every girl wants to look perfect on their wedding day,its built in to all girls,instead of wasting money on such stupid incentives let them give the money and “scholarships” to kallahs that need money to make their wedding,and girls who cant afford seminary,though personally this seminary sounds pathetic,and i would never send my daughter there…September 1, 2009 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1135208
Makes a lot of sense. It IS the snif. I personally know girls that want to go to that school but refuse because of that rule and because they dont except americans or israelies to American parents. Does anyone understand that rule? because I DON’T!!!!September 1, 2009 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1135209
mi keamcha yisroelMember
I would like to welcome the following people to the cr:
HAVE FUN!!September 1, 2009 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1135210
The last time I was in Eretz Yisroel I was by a well known Rebbetzin and a kallah and her family came in for a Brocho. Though the speech of the Kallah identified her as a very frum individual, her heavy makeup and glittery cheeks seemed out of context with her refined manner. I think this is what the seminary is concerned with. The makeup of this young lady was not refined but rather garish – not at all comparable to the soft enhancing makeup worn by the frum kallahs I see in the States.September 2, 2009 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1135212
GAW, that was my first thought too 🙂
As for covering your hair after yichud – I was told to keep my veil on. It is a HEAD covering, as opposed to a HAIR covering. Head vs Hair covering is a big halachic debate in the gemara. I would assume that is what people who cover their hair fully after their wedding day rely on.September 2, 2009 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1135213
Bottom line- there does seem to be a real deoraysah mekor for married women covering their hair (From vegilcha es rosha in Parshas Naso). The only question is at what point are they married- chuppah, yichud, or a later stage. There is a clear mekor to be machmir that after the chuppah or yichud one is a nesuah, although many are meikel. Makeup is a new chumra with a much more opaque mekor, if any.September 2, 2009 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1135214
merely a bystanderMember
See here’s the thing. This is the way to implement the program: The seminary should have a makeup artist on call who will service each bride to the seminaries specifications. Modesty is an issue, granted, however history has shown that going to the opposite extreme, although tempting, is ineffective and dangerous. It is the liberal mind that says ” if the chosson doesn’t mind I don’t see the issue”. One simple fact can not be argued: the girl does it more for herself then for anyone else!September 2, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1135215
To Mod. 80, You are correct it does say that in the gemmora, but you left out a few things. Also, I would never send my child to such a school -this is crumkeit not frumkeit. I hope all the posters agree that a frum yid is someone who follows shulchan aruch, not someone who makes up chumras, to look better than someone else or for whatever reason. Why don’t they give scholarships to girls who will marry bochurim who are having a hard time getting married. Just because they don’t have a good shem isn’t a good reason. Every yid has a chezkas kashrus and more than half of what people say about these bochurim isn’t even loshon hora (true), it’s pure motzay shem rah (false). All right back to the halacha to explain why this is crum. I’ll write in English, so even the women will be able to understand. The Shulchan Aruch in Hilchos Aveilos -Yora Deah -Simon 381 -Seif 6 (some of this is based on the gemorrah in Kesubos) says: “A woman should not put on makeup & fix hair when she is during her aveilos (mourning). A married woman is just not allowed to put on makeup & fix hair during shiva, but after that she is allowed to, in order that she shouldn’t look unappealing to her husband. A Kallah who became an aveilah and is within 30 days of her marriage is allowed to put on makeup even during shiva. A Boigeres, (Girl of marriagable age- usually 12 and a half or older)(She might not even be a Kallah yet.) since she is waiting /about(Ohmedes -literally -standing) to get married, is allowed to put on makeup and do her hair.” If there was a reason or Inyan to be Machmir not to put on makeup -the Shuchan Aruch would never have said you are allowed to do it when you are during aveilos. So you see just the opposite, it is such an Inyan to put on makeup -it is Docheh (pushes off) the Issur (Prohibition) of Aveilos (mourning).September 2, 2009 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1135216
“Igros Moshe writes that covering hair is not dependent on chuppa or yichud. However, HaRav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlita told me before my chasuna that after yichud she must cover her hair.”
PM, When does, in said teshuva, the Igros Moshe pasken covering hair become mandatory?September 2, 2009 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1135217
Health, if they want keep this chumrah, who are you to judge!! No one is forcing you follow it. They are many different ways to interpet the Torah. I myself love to use Makeup. If the seminary wants to institute it, Kol Hakovod. If people disagree, then they can go to another seminary that may be more geared to their needs and beliefs. We have choice.
I had a teacher in High School, who said her husband did not like his wife to use Makeup. He said when women used Makeup, they reminded him of clowns. What he said always stayed with me, but I choose to take a postive message from it. The fact that he thought his wife was beautiful without makeup, made such in impression on me. The other point I learned from this is to I try to keep my makeup done in a natural way. Light colors, rather then bold.September 2, 2009 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1135218
I’m w/ you. Komoicho yirbu bYisroel.
They’re probably well intended, but still I thing they’re “ah bandeh meshugoiyim”.
I wonder what other meshugassen they teach there.September 2, 2009 4:41 am at 4:41 am #1135219
And that is not Lashon Hara??!!September 2, 2009 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1135220
GREAT , THEY FOUND SOMETHING ELSE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IS IT THAT THESE MEN NOTICE ALL THESE THINGS ON THE WOMEN. Do men sit and think what the women are doing wrong.September 2, 2009 6:25 am at 6:25 am #1135221
is it really our place to judge these people?
smartmom- very good point. I don’t think they are concerned about makeup per say, as much as they are concerned HOW it’s being used.
and merely a bystander: while you might be a bystander, that was a mighty good idea! although if they are discouraging makeup in the first place, i don’t know if it would fly…September 2, 2009 7:59 am at 7:59 am #1135222
If the idea is to prevent the girls from going overboard after being restricted throughout the school years from wearing any makeup – the solution is obviously not to bribe them, and present it as a chumrah (which is wrong on both accounts!)… How’s this… Instead of giving the money to the girls, let them hire makeup artists of theri choosing, and offer the girls free makeup application for the wedding day. The girls get to have the makeup done for free, look beautiful for their chassanim, and all under the shemirah of the school (so they can make sure it is done with chein and not over-applied).September 2, 2009 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1135223
this whole article was taken word for word from Ynet’s english page.
I’m sure there was a mistranslation (intensional or not, I do not know) and the takona is probably that girls who are engaged should not wear make-up until their wedding.
none of the snif girls who are not engaged wear make-up on a daily basis (I don’t know if they are not allowed to, or its just not done) but once they are engaged some tend to.
I do not believe there is a single Kalla out there who will not wear makeup on their wedding day… there is a discussion in the gemora as to whether a kalla in the week of sheva brochos who loses a parent may wear make up or not.. surely then at the wedding there is nothing improper with wearing some.
and as for squeak who stated that he/she has been to weddings where 50% of the people wore makeup… yes, those 50% were the men.
unless he/she lives in Pakistan or Afganistan I don’t believe there are any weddings where the kalla will wear no make-up at all.September 2, 2009 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1135226
On behalf of the (old) chashuve CR members:
We extend a GRAND WELCOME to all the new members in this thread! We’re so glad you joined us- please stick around and post on all topics. 🙂September 2, 2009 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1135227
I know that I am one of those people who hates makeup i never ever wear it but on my wedding day i wanted to look good for myself and for pictures, I am not sure why this is a bad thing.September 2, 2009 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1135228
I heard there is a Yeshiva that is offering scholarships if 1500 NIS to bachurim who will marry girls who dont wear makeup on their wedding day.
I also heard there is a Yeshiva that is offering scholarships ranging from 100 to 1000 NIS for bachurim who dont shave before their chasuna. 100 NIS for each days growth maximum 10 days.September 2, 2009 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1135229
jphone – I heard that there is a yeshiva that is offering scholarships to bachurim and tuition discounts to yungerleit who can make fun of any person or topic of the yeshiva’s choosing, no matter how sincere. There’s a long line, though, so hurry up.September 2, 2009 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1135232
What about kallahs who wear burqas on their wedding days? Will they be checked to see if they are wearing makeup under the burqa?September 3, 2009 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1135233
You didn’t understand my post. If the Shulchan Aruch says something -that is the halacha. Doing opposite from the Shulchan Aruch isn’t a chumra, no matter what your seichel (sense) tells you, it’s krum and wrong. I wasn’t talking about always wearing makeup, especially if your husband doesn’t care, I was talking about in these specific cases. A kallah is one of those cases. The Shuchan Aruch says even after the wedding she should wear makeup- for sure during her wedding.September 3, 2009 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1135234
Health – Yasher koach for your very informed and sensible postings!September 3, 2009 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1135235
I think it is very special if those girls do it- i have been at some chasunahs that the kallah doesnt wear makeup- good for them. If in there circles they dont do it then fine. As for me- My husband once asked a chushiva well known dayen on the inyan of makeup, if you are allowed to wear makeup outside or for the husband only. and you know what his psak was???? A lady is MECHUYAV to wear makeup for her husband and if it will make him feel good that you wear makup outside too ( that she looks nice) then she MUST wear makup outside the house too. The streets outside is as dirty as they come and we must look presentable. When i look nice outside my husband feels proud of his wife. There is a very big nesoyan on the streets and it is a ladys achreis to look her best. to forgo makeup on the day of the chasunah is not for me cause who are you supposed to lood good for if not for your chassan for the first time???September 3, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1135236
I’m glad my husband doesn’t like makeup generally so I am not mechuyav to wear it on a regular basis. He enjoys when I wear it on special occasions (wedding, smachot etc) because then it is special and I look extra beautiful.September 3, 2009 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1135237
To NY Mom,
Not only is it not special, it’s wrong! If the Shulchan Aruch says it’s an Inyan to do something and you don’t do it because of your Frumme Yezer Hora, it’s not “good for them”, it’s bad for them!September 3, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1135238
Some girls are naturally beautiful, and mamesh need no makeup to look good on their chasunah day. Others, however, frankly could use a little help in that department, even if only to cover up bad skin, pale complexion, light eyelashes, all of which do not usually allow someone to look her best on the most important day to date, of her life. Makeup is like icing on a cake. If the cake is good, it’s good, but if the icing makes it look even more attractive to the eye, well – it’s the icing on the cake! The Jewish women in Mitzrayim used their mirrors presumably to check for ways to appear more attractive to their husbands. I would think that applying makeup of some type was probably one of those ways, no?September 3, 2009 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1135240
OY – I was reading a Ynet translation of the original article in the Vochediger Velt-Barimte Pashkvilke.
The correct information is that I know of a father who paid his daughter 100,000 food stamps to stay at home on her wedding night.September 4, 2009 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1135241
did you have something to drink tonight? all those posts…
😉September 4, 2009 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1135242
Perhaps this was raised already?
The original post here quotes “Moshe whose sister who studies at the seminary”. Since a seminary is named, why couldnt someone fron its hanhala have been quoted or at least asked for an explanation and of they chose not to answer, thats their business, but it can be reported?
Is this a fake seminary with a made up takannah?
The reason given is that girls were taking advantage of a policy that is relaxed “before a girls wedding”. To combat that, a monetary incentive os offered, why not enforce the rule already in place? Perhaps it isnt enforcable? Perhaps it is a takannah that the tzibbur is aino yachol lamod bo? Perhaps the “hetter” to wear makeup is a little ambiguous? With “before wedding” not being clear? Perhaps the seminary should clarify what is permitted before the wedding? Seems reasonable. Offering a financial incentive to follow a policy sounds like a parent who gives up on getting a child to clean their room and offering an ice cream to do so. Is that the chinuch method of this seminary?
This sounds so bizarre, I really think this is made up.September 4, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1135243
i think this topic has sorta exhausted itself… we’re going in circles!
jphone- just to recap if you didn’t see above: yes, this is a real Sem, and quite a prestigious one too!
It’s officially called Darchi Rochel, otherwise known as the Snif. This is a real rule, although not new at all. In addition, this rule is not really in existence any more… 😉
More importantly, because we (i don’t THINK you go there if you don’t know the name of the school :)) DON’T go to that school, and DON’T send our kids to that school, and DON’T understand the mentality in the slightest bit, we really don’t have much concreate to stand on, to say they should abolish it, it’s assur, they don’t know what they are talking about…September 4, 2009 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1135244
If this is a REAL seminary, why does the entire story center around the words of “Moshe whose sister attends the seminary”?September 4, 2009 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1135245
Nah, its all made up just to rile up the CR.September 4, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1135246
Mepal, whether you are serious or not, is hard to tell (at least I cant tell). But if this is a legitimate story, “Moshe, whose sister attends the seminary” doesnt exactly sound very reliable.September 6, 2009 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1135247
Did you all know that some tannaim and amoraim sold makeup for a living?September 6, 2009 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1135248
I bet they only sold it to married folks.September 6, 2009 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1135249
Lets see the gemara(s) and relevant meforshim to see who sold what to whom.
Sources?September 6, 2009 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1135250
I am more interested in knowing which Daas Torah they asked before implementing this. Which Rabbonim approved this?September 6, 2009 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1135251
Wasn’t the 12 months between kiddushin and nisuin in the time of gemara so that the kallah could look her best on her wedding day? (Lefarnes es atzmah btachshitin, if I recall?) Also, gemara says a father is required to buy his daughter things that will make all the bochurim jump on her (want to marry her on the spot).
Second, whoever came up with this angry G-d theory? If a kallah wears makeup at her wedding, does this angry G-d blow his top, blow his stack, or blow smoke out of his ears? Why worship an angry G-d when one can worship a kind benevolent G-d instead? I mean, really, whoever came up with this nonsense? Maybe they need to attend some anger management classes, so they wouldn’t project their own anger on G-d.September 6, 2009 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1135252
They have a psak from “Moshe, whose sister attends the seminary”.
He received his semicha from “Yankel whose sister is married to a bachur from Tel Aviv, who has a sister in law who attends this seminary”.September 6, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1135253
Isn’t that a important part of being a frum yid? Aren’t we a nation who follows Daas Torah and not just daas yachid?
How many times have you asked a Rav a shailah, thinking that he would approve and you were surprised that the Rav disagreed (either meikel or machmir)? And sometimes you think a shailah is clear cut and the Rav informs you it is much more complicated than you thought.
Is this any different?September 6, 2009 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1135254
How much money are they offering for a choson not to get a haircut, not to take a shower the month before his wedding and not to buy a new suit or shoes, but to wear old ragged ones?September 6, 2009 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1135255
The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.
In the Shevet HaLevi there is a responsa about a woman who dressed herself nicely and put on makeup only when she was going out of the house, where she would be seen by her friends and neighbors. This is when she cared to appear attractive. However, in her own house, she did not care to enhance her natural appearance. Was this conduct acceptable, or did it indicate some degree of a breach in the standards of tznius? The answer given was that although we find in the Gemarah that Chazal emphasized that a woman should care about her appearance, this is specifically in terms of not being repulsive in front of her husband. If a woman puts a great effort into being noticed by strangers, this is reminiscent of the sins of the daughters of Yerushalayim at the time of the destruction.
So to stress the point: The Beis Hamikdash was destroyed due to over-usage of cosmetics.September 6, 2009 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1135256
This whole line of thought is making me blush. Oh wait – that resembles makeup, so maybe it’s assur. I sometimes wonder what people are thinking when they make some of these types of pronouncements. I doubt that Hashem wants girls to appear unnattractive to their husbands. Most girls, Jewish or otherwise, DO benefit from a little cosmetic help. The key word is LITTLE. Ungepotchket is not appropriate no matter who the girl is.September 6, 2009 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1135257
So what is your point? Do you agree with this Seminary?
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