No Women On The Seruv List?

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  • #746841
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    TMB:

    That was precisely what I was saying.

    Now, I don’t necessarily think either of them should be doing that, but if one party is already being unfair, why shouldn’t the other party also?

    If you somehow got the courts to give you an unfair advantage, why shouldn’t I use my leverage to get you to stop.

    #746842
    Health
    Participant

    Eclipse -one thing I learnt in life – is that no two cases are the same. A person has to have an open mind. While I believe you that you and your friends got a raw deal -I also got a raw deal from my ex-wife. Not all cases are like yours and not all are like mine. Each one is different. There are bad people from both genders. One is not better than the other.

    #746843

    How can you make general statements like this? Every child is different- some need their mother, some their father and some need a combination! Some do best sharing their parents and traveling back and forth- I know of a kid who does well in this way as both parents are civil about it. They arranged to buy the same kind of bedding, books, toys ect and there is one in each house so that way the child is secure. Unfortunately, many divorce cases leave both parents so raw and vindictive that they end up hurting the child in the process.

    #746844

    TMB-

    “The amount of money he must give is specified in the Kesuba. To demand more is wrong of her. To give less is wrong of him. “

    If she requested the get, he does not owe her anything. Nadda.

    #746845

    havesomeseichel: Agreed.

    popa: So to understand your position, if she goes to court, instead of beis din, to decide custody based on secular law instead of Jewish law, you would support his decision to withhold the get until she complied with halacha, dropped the court case, and allowed halacha to decide the custody issues. Similarly with asset separation. If she went to court instead of beis din, because secular court will give her 50/50 instead of the halacha that she only gets assets she had before her marriage, you would take the same position on him withholding the get until she complied with halacha and she allowed beis din to decide the asset separation using halacha rather than the secular court using secular law.

    #746846
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    TMB:

    Yes. That sounds reasonable to me. What do you think?

    (And of course it is not a sexist thing, it cuts both ways. If he is taking advantage of her, she can refuse the get.)

    #746847

    I agree with you popa.

    #746848
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    For example:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/04/us/04divorce.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    This is a story about a frum guy who works for the Republican Ways and Means committee, who is withholding a get.

    His wife had gone to the courts, and the custody order gives him weekends starting at 6PM fridays which effectively means he doesn’t get the kids until after shabbos.

    I think he should withhold the get until she is reasonable.

    #746849

    popa: Hagaon HaRav Yisroel Belsky shlit”a is supporting him in doing just that.

    #746850
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I have knowledge of the particular case cited by popa as the man is a close relative of a freind and in fact stayed in my house.

    There is currently no Beis Din that has stated that the Man is obligated to give a get rather Bes Din has testified that it was the wife who left Bes Din and was unwilling to work with them.

    The Man in question is being persectuted unfairly and going through a rough time simply because he wishes to maintain a connection with his only son.

    As Rav Yisroel Belsky stated in his letter regarding this case “let those who do not know gittin busy themselves with something else”.

    #746852
    Health
    Participant

    Popa & Ben Levi- Not to argue on the Bais Din, but being through a divorce myself, something sounds fishy to me. Here is a lawyer who either agreed or was forced by the court to start his weekend at 6PM Fri. Did he mention the Shabbos issue to the court? I would have and I’m not a lawyer. Even if you tell me, that it was an anti-semitic Judge and he/she ruled against him; did he appeal? Something is wrong because the Judge wanted to give him parenting time, obviously, but was he/she made aware that it’s not really parenting time? It just seems also strange that you can get out 100/200 people to demonstrate against him- if she has done something against our religion. There are missing pieces that have not been brought out in the media.

    #746853
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Health:

    You are correct; my comment was only if the situation is as described in the NY Times story. I have no idea what is actually going on there.

    #746854

    I know of a case that had demonstrating done for it. The way it gets promoted is a flier gets sent through emails ect and they say “man making woman agunah. protest at 3 pm…” Many of the people may not know the real story (I don’t know the story listed here either) but “feel bad” or may hear rumors/lies ect.

    Then again, who really knows the truth of what happened?

    Health- just because there are the numbers does not mean that they are correct.

    #746855
    Health
    Participant

    havesomeseichel -You are correct, but I was bringing the numbers as another point that doesn’t add up. All those frum people at that demostration knew why he is withholding the get, but came anyway. This is a national case -the NY times picked it up. To say so many don’t know about the shabbos issue or don’t care about it, is far-fetched. My point is there is a lot going on that noone knows about, so people reading this case should not jump to conclusions!

    #746856
    NoNonsense
    Participant

    Actually, Popa, My friend knows this story first hand (can’t elaborate on how)from the wife’s side. She told me that HE was the one who went to the secular courts AFTER they went to Beis Din. however, he didn’t like the ruling so keeps on coming up with excuses as to why he can’t comply. The Shabbos excuse is another ploy. His “wife” already submitted in writing a willingness to resolve the Erev Shabbos problem. Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, amongst others, have signed on in support of his young wife. Please remember that each side has their version of the “truth” and we should not make blanket statements on this forum. Let’s all daven that they should reach a fair and workable solution. Neither one should have to continue to suffer.

    #746857
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Health:

    Of course I don’t rely on the media for details as I already mentioned in my last post.

    In regards to the appeal they did appeal and lost.

    #746858
    NoNonsense
    Participant

    “The Man in question is being persectuted unfairly and going through a rough time simply because he wishes to maintain a connection with his only son.”

    Ben Levi, as you have “knowledge of the case” I assume that you should know it is a duaghter, not a son, in the center of this case.

    And why did he lose the appeal? Could it be that the courts saw through him and are losing their trust in him?

    #746859
    Health
    Participant

    Ben Levi -Do you know why it lost in appeal? Are you going to tell me now that the appeal’s court is also anti-semitic? You either don’t know all the details or you are witholding them. It seems that from Nononsense’s post that the man’s side isn’t on the up and up!

    #746860
    Cedarhurst
    Member

    The Beis Din in this case never ordered him to give a get. A husband is NOT obligated to give a get on demand.

    #746861
    Health
    Participant

    Cedarhurst- True, but why did he leave bais din and go to the goyishe courts, before finishing in bais din?

    #746862
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    To be clear:

    I intend to make no judgment about this case, as I do not know anything about it.

    My comment was only discussing the facts presented in the article I referenced.

    #746863
    Cedarhurst
    Member

    The beis din has stated that the ball is in her court. She has not initiated any further action. The beis din is supporting him in this case.

    #746864
    apushatayid
    Participant

    There ARE women who have seruvs issued against them by batei din. You just wont read about it in the jewish press.

    #746865
    Charlies Fan
    Member

    NEWSFLASH NEWSFLASH: A woman on the JP list. Hurray. popa_bar_abba has spoken JP listening

    holding with JP list tradition woman on list is falsely siruved

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