No, you don't own the parking spot you dug out for the next two weeks

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  • #617114
    Joseph
    Participant

    Thanks for digging it out, but someone took the slot I dug out and there’s nowhere else to park.

    #1133967
    TheGoq
    Participant

    In my alter heim people would put folding chairs and other obstacles to let people know that this spot was not up for grabs.

    #1133968
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Depends what city you live in. In many cities, you do have a right to put out your junk and save a spot.

    #1133969
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is that on the books legally, or just understood?

    #1133970
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Legally.

    #1133971
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which city has that on their books?

    #1133972
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    In NYC it is both illegal nor is it understood.

    It is also impractical since the line between commercial/residential is quite blurry. On a given day 10 different cars park in any spot even on my residential block, running various errands down the block. Preventing all those people from parking all day doesn’t make a lot of sense, it would mean every spot in NYC is “Reserved” since obviously somebody dug it out.

    #1133973
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not for two weeks, though. Maybe two days.

    #1133974
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In NYC you do not have the right to save the spot

    #1133975

    Under the Lockian theory of property rights you now own the spot because you made significant improvements to the otherwise unused land. It’s the same theory that the American colonists used to justify their capture of Native American territory, or what some people use to justify the settlement of Eretz Yisrael (we took arid, unusable land from Arabs and made it productive farmland). GET A GUN AND PROTECT YOUR RIGHTFUL PROPERTY!! DONALD J. TRUMP 2016 You did the work, you should enjoy your spot.

    #1133976
    mosygold
    Participant

    Nope, PBA. Even where you (PBA) live – it’s illegal, though many do do it.

    #1133977
    The Queen
    Participant

    Thank G-D for driveways.

    #1133978
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How do you park when your stuff is there?

    #1133979
    blubluh
    Participant

    This notice is posted on the web site of my NJ township’s department of public works:

    “Citizens are reminded that it is illegal to attempt

    to unlawfully reserve street parking.

    Doing so may risk removal of offending material as

    the case requires.”

    Of course, many people are either unaware of or ignore that rule.

    A well-respected posek in my town lives near the train station where there’s a lot of competition for parking spots, especially when snow piles block a bunch of them. When I attempted to use the cleaned out spot in front of his house, he came out and forbade me from doing so, claiming that it was reserved for his wife’s car.

    I understood his position all too well and I did eventually find a spot quite a distance from the train station, but I was not a happy camper.

    #1133980
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Some people even make an illegal driveway on their property, thereby permanently saving a parking spot in front of their home.

    #1133981
    yitzyk
    Participant

    Was this well-respected posek paskening l’halacha that it belonged to him? Isn’t he a Nogeia Badavar?

    He might have made a Chazaka, but as every not-so-well known posek knows, Kol Chazaka Sheain Imo Teineh, Aino Chazaka. He would first have to had purchased the parking spot from the city or township, and then made his improvement.

    He could however claim ownership to all of the hefker snow that he moved, with a kinyan hagbaha. Of course, he might not want to admit that, because he might be a mazik if he piled it up in front of someone else’s parking spot or driveway.

    #1133982
    blubluh
    Participant

    Yitzyk: Yes, I agree with you.

    Just to clarify: he didn’t issue a “psak”, per se (he didn’t frame his argument in such terms).

    I figure he was just being “a good husband” and, given his status, I didn’t feel I was in any position to argue the point.

    #1133983
    oomis
    Participant

    My daughter made a cogent statement today, and I think it OUGHT to be a law. If I spent money and/or time, and physical labor to dig out my car, then for three days after a snowstorm, there should be a law that only the person who dug out the spot may use it. After that, it’s up for grabs. I live next door to a Yeshiva/Shul, across the street from another Yeshiva, and there is another Shul being built on my block. I have already been greatly inconvenienced by inconsiderate people who blocked my driveway a couple of feet, which made it impossible for me to get into my driveway without risking breaking an axle.

    Should someone ALSO benefit from the money that I paid out to a couple of guys to dig me out, just because I left my house briefly to buy needed staple items? It’s not right. It might be legal, but it is really unmenschlech. And no, I have never done that to anyone else. Moreover, when this was done to me last year, the person who parked his car didn’t move it for two days. I am not a youngster anymore (so my knees tell me), and it is extremely painful and teacherous for me to carry groceries or even just walk on the snow and ice, from a parking spot all the way down my block. People should not be so thoughtless. I understand I do not OWN the spot, but at least don’t steal it out from under me until after a COUPLE of days after the storm. Bad enough when it happens in beautiful weather.

    #1133984
    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis: Do you suggest that no one can park on any residential street in the city for three days after a storm, except a spot they were in during the storm?

    If you go visit a family member of friend or for whatever reason need to go to a residential area within three days of the storm, where will you park?

    #1133985
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Well, at least she agrees with you that you don’t own it for two weeks.

    #1133986
    Quacky the duck
    Participant

    NYC plows, should plow against the curb and crush your cars on the sidewalk, you fools

    #1133987
    oomis
    Participant

    Joseph, I do not think it is right for someone to steal the spot I or anyone else either dug out with our own hands, or paid good money to have someone else dig. And yes, I think it is reasonable to have to wait for a couple of days (if not three) after a storm, unless they were in that spot to begin with. Otherwise, they should leave a note with a phone number where they can be reached, so the person who dug out the spot can return and ask them to move. FOR TWO DAYS OR SO. That is not unreasonable. What IS unreasonable, is for someone to watch and wait for me to leave, then immediately chaap my space, and then stay there. That has happened to me more than a few times, and I AM NOT A HAPPY CAMPER!!!! Winter brings out the non-best in me…

    #1133988
    yitzyk
    Participant

    Maybe instead of paying someone to dig out your car just to go to the grocery store, thereby losing your parking spot, you should have paid someone to go to the grocery store for you.

    Maybe then you would own the grocery store for three days? Or at least the path from your house to the store? Just because you paid someone for it…

    #1133989
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sorry, Oomis, as frustrating as it is, the spot does not belong to you. You didn’t pay for the spot, you paid to get your car out.

    Your driveway, OTOH, is yours, and you have a legitimate complaint against someone who blocks it.

    Why don’t you just park in your driveway?

    #1133990
    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis: You didn’t answer my question to you as where you park when you drive over to visit a residential area within two or three days of the storm.

    #1133991
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oomis, in many OOT cities, the rule you propose is actually the rule. It works well, since this way people actually shovel out the spots instead of just moving enough snow around to get their car out.

    However, the reason that isn’t the rule in NY, is that there are not actually enough spots on the street for everyone to be parked there at the same time. So if your rule were the rule, the people who were at work, or wherever, when the snow fell, would not be allowed to come home for your two days. (And it isn’t as if they could park on the next block–there’s someone taking every spot there also.)

    So while I sympathize with your digging out your car only to have someone else grab the spot, I also sympathize with the dude who went to Lakewood for shabbos and now has zero spots to park in in NY (under your rule).

    Snow in NY really stinks. Well, actually, NY really stinks.

    #1133992
    oomis
    Participant

    Sorry, Yitzy, but that makes no sense to me. I pay a lot of taxes for the house in front of which I park my car. It is not too much to ask that for a couple of days after digging it out, that I be able to park my car in front of that house (which by the way, were someone to fall on the sidewalk that a homeowner has to pay to shovel, the homeowner could be held liable)without fear of losing the space the second I drive away (and if you are intellectually honest, you would feel the same way, were you in my position, and that’s why this is such a hot-button issue). That has nothing to do with a path to a grocery store, on a public road that I not only do not own, but upon which I do not have any liability.

    #1133993
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    OOmis

    First just to clarify You didnt dig out a spot you dug out your car. (If there was a empty spot that you went ahead and dug out so that you can put your car there, then I agree nobody should park there before you do)

    More importantly though. when you left the spot where did you park? You do realize wherever you parked was dug out too thes now didnt fall leaving you empty spots at wherever you may need to be in the next few days. right?

    Are you suggesting that for a couple of days people should only be allowed to park in stores with parking lots? Does this really make sense to you?

    People who commute to work shouldnt go to work unless their office provides parking?

    And someone who was out of town for the storm cant park at all for a few days after the storm?

    Do you realy think any of the above are reasonable?

    #1133994
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Snow in NY really stinks. Well, actually, NY really stinks.

    NY stinks much worse when it snows, because they don’t pick up the garbage.

    #1133995
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    NY stinks much worse when it snows, because they don’t pick up the garbage.

    At least its frozen so it isn’t rotting.

    The problem is the idiots who clear away the snow from parking spots and then the garbage starts rotting there again.

    #1133996
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I read on the news that dude in Boston was shot in a fight over a parking spot.

    Not sure what the point was, since the shooter then drove away to avoid being arrested. So lost the spot anyway.

    #1133997
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Did the guy die?

    Cuz if not, he probably learned his lesson.

    Was that a suggestion to Oomis?

    #1133998
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think my post was a suggestion, but looks like yours was.

    Not calling you a sociopath, but not not calling you one either.

    #1134000
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Bluhbluh Long Branch?

    #1134001
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Very kind of you.

    #1134002
    blubluh
    Participant

    The Goq: No, not Long Branch. I think it’s best that I not provide info that might lead to identifying that individual (I could have provided it to begin with).

    As they say: Loose lips sink ships. 🙂

    #1134003
    Joseph
    Participant

    blubluh: It took me no longer than half a minute to determine which town you referred to.

    The ship is sunk. 😉

    #1134004
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Oomis, while I feel your pain, I completely disagree with you. This is called life in the big city. Sometimes it stinks, but you obviously feel the positives outweigh the negatives and continue to live in the big city. You want your spot, dont move the car. they are blocking your driveway, have them towed. You need groceries, call the store and pay for delivery. You want your own parking spot waiting for you every time you come home, then buy a house with a driveway and enforce your rights to your driveway.

    #1134005
    cherrybim
    Participant

    There is an unwritten social contract: we both dig our cars out; I can park in your spot and you can park in mine. Expand that rule to include an entire city and you have social order. It’s not going to be totally fair but it’s the best we have; like taxes.

    #1134006
    Chaimy
    Participant

    Now I understand why my kids behave the way they do. They probably know some of yours and learned to copy their behavior

    #1134007
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Obviously the kids dont feel your behavior is worth copying so they look at other people instead.

    #1134008
    Participant

    It took me no longer than half a minute to determine which town you referred to.

    In New Jersey there is a difference between a town and a city.

    #1134009
    charliehall
    Participant

    “GET A GUN AND PROTECT YOUR RIGHTFUL PROPERTY!!”

    “I read on the news that dude in Boston was shot in a fight over a parking spot.”

    Was shekermoochlat the shooter or the guy who got shot?

    #1134010
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    The one who dug it out doesn’t own it for the next two weeks, but if anyone else wants to take it, they should first have to move all the snow back and then dig it up themselves.

    #1134011
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis, while I feel your pain, I completely disagree with you. This is called life in the big city. Sometimes it stinks, but you obviously feel the positives outweigh the negatives and continue to live in the big city. You want your spot, dont move the car. they are blocking your driveway, have them towed. You need groceries, call the store and pay for delivery. You want your own parking spot waiting for you every time you come home, then buy a house with a driveway and enforce your rights to your driveway. “

    First of all, I do not live in the “big city.” I am in a very residential one-side-of-the-street-only-parking block (my side), and we are surrounded by Yeshivahs and shuls (as well as someone building their house), where people are constantly looking for parking, without looking to see if what they are doing is menschlech. They will take up TWO spaces instead of moving one foot forward or back, so that another car can fit. Sorry that I feel that is wrong.

    I would NEVER call a tow on someone, because while they have no business parking across my driveway, I know it’s frum people, and I don’t want to be moser on them. I leave a note asking them to be more cognizant next time.

    We have a car, and my daughter has a car. My husband and I are not youngsters, and walking from all the way down our block, especially with packages, is difficult in good weather, and extremely hazardous when the weather is inclement. My husband has already fallen twice. So please forgive me for my strongly felt opinion that it would not be a bad thing for people to refrain from stealing a spot for two or three days after a storm.

    “OOmis

    First just to clarify You didnt dig out a spot you dug out your car. (If there was a empty spot that you went ahead and dug out so that you can put your car there, then I agree nobody should park there before you do)

    More importantly though. when you left the spot where did you park? You do realize wherever you parked was dug out too thes now didnt fall leaving you empty spots at wherever you may need to be in the next few days. right?”

    I dug out my car AND the spot next to it, so two cars could fit there. It cost a lot of gelt to do that, and my husband and I are not physically allowed to do that type shoveling anymore.My daughter did the best she could after Shabbos, but it got to be too much for her after an hour. No one came by until the next afternoon. Why should someone who paid NOTHING for the work we had done, benefit that day or the next? Sorry, but I stand by my opinion, and though some folks might be too afraid of the backlash to admit it, I am sure many others agree.

    I did NOT take anyone’s parking spot from them. I parked at meters when I went shopping. That is also a pain when there is a lot of snow, but B”H it’s melting now.

    BTW, does anyone honestly believe that any couple, much less the elderly, should feel compelled to be totally homebound, because they are in fear of losing their parking spot that they dug out? Someone took our spot in front of my house, last year, and LEFT their car there for a week! I found out it belonged to someone who lives several houses further down the block (where there IS other side of the street parking) from me, and there was plenty of parking near them. This is not a nice thing to do. And my next door neighbor and I DO exchange parking spots. Because we treat each other with derech eretz.

    I guess, folks, we will have to agree to disagree. Always respectfully.

    #1134012
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you have a driveway?

    #1134013
    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis: You ignored a bunch of posters asking you how anyone can drive to another residential area to visit family or friends after a storm, since according to your opinion they will not be able to park anywhere – since any open spots were obviously dug out by someone else.

    Do you propose people shouldn’t visit people after a storm, if they need to get there by car?

    #1134014
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Yeah. Wondering the same thing. Didn’t you indicate you own a driveway?

    #1134015
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Do you have a driveway?

    Me? No.

    Do you? Can I block it? Did I block it?

    #1134016
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “We have a car, and my daughter has a car.”

    You have one house on the block, but two cars? I think we should pass a law, one car per home, why should you have a right to take up more parking spaces than homes you own on the block?

    So, what it really boils down to is that in general, snow or no snow, you live on a block that many people come and look for parking every day and you have to compete with them day in and day out. Compounding your frustration is that some of those people dont respect others and hog two spots. Your frustration is further compounded when it snows and parking becomes that much more difficult. Despite your frustration, you are not guaranteed a parking space on your block. If you wish to guarantee yourself a spot work with the local politicians to institute residential parking only. Perhaps have one or two handicapped spots created and get a permit. Your age and/or physical limitations are a) not known to everyone who passes through and is looking for parking and b) does not guarantee you a parking space unless it is a clearly designated spot and you have a permit to park in such a space. This doesnt mean people should be mean, but that is entirely different than “I shoveled it, its mine”. Perhaps if you tried a different approach and appealed to the mench in people you might be pleasantly surprised.

    “I don’t want to be moser on them.”

    For what it is worth, I have asked my own Rav and was told this is not being “moser”.

    Your last parapgraph only reinforces our disagreement. It is not your spot or your neighbors spot. Your frustration will simply grow for as long as you live in a highly trafficked area.

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