May 14, 2014 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #612783pixelateMember
So i was listening to a non-kewish a capella group, and someone tells me that its better to listen to real music that is jewish during sefira. Is this true? Do people hold like this?May 15, 2014 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1015333👑RebYidd23Participant
No. It depends what music it is.May 15, 2014 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1015334Bookworm120Participant
It sounds consistent with the viewpoint that it is always better to listen to Jewish music than non-Jewish music.May 15, 2014 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1015335🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
actually it sounds like a troll thread.May 15, 2014 2:21 am at 2:21 am #1015336
Assuming the music isn’t inappropriate, it’s no more Assur than non-inappropriate non-Jewish music is all year round.May 15, 2014 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1015337
Some poskim hold that any type of music which comes through a music player (phone, radio, computer, etc.) is assur, even a capella, because the device becomes a kli zemer for the music.
Others may hold that all music is mutter, even during s’firah, due to Rav Moshe’s heter to listen to music all year long which, m’iker hadin he holds, is assur.May 15, 2014 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1015339
Rav Moshe’s heter to listen to music all year long
Other than this oft repeated, not yet substantiated rumor of R’ Moshe’s heter, I agree with every post so far on this thread.May 15, 2014 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1015340
cherrybim: You have brought some background to this matter. R’Moshe zz’l believed that music is ossur all year round (see some of his teshuvos) and only reluctanlty acquiesced to the kulos of today.Hence, R’Moshe zz’l felt that during sefirah we should assert the halacha of all year round. And, if you read the teshuvos on music and sefirah ,it becomes even clearer that R’Moshe zz’l felt thast this was an extension of all year round halacha.
However, as a large part of klal yisroel is “meikel”on music all year round, it becomes much more difficult to prohibit music during sefirah. It seems that the “tsibbur’ accepted an issur for live performances but many groups are “meikel”‘ on recorded music, such as Chabad, mentioned by yourself, Rab Hutner zz’l and his talmidim and even R”moshe zz’l himself who allowed chazanut on sefirah.
This approach would at least give the Issur of music during sefirah some substance, which it doesn’t have now.
Posted 1 year ago #May 15, 2014 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1015341
Igrot Moshe (1:166). But holds not to use his heter during s’fira.
DaasY: do you have a direct shulchan aruch source that music is prohibited during s’fira? Where is it?May 15, 2014 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1015342
No, but as you said, the Igros Moshe and others discuss it.May 15, 2014 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1015343
Aderaba, it is better to listen to non-Jewish A-Capella (as long as it is via a speaker) than live “Jewish” (and how “Jewish” is it) music that includes instruments throughout the year. Pashtus from reading Rav Moshe in Iggros 1:166 (last 2 lines).
Personally, if Klal Yisroel can be Meikel like the Bach for Chodosh (which is M’dioraysa), they certainly can be Somech on the Rama, Tos. & Rashi for Zimrah.May 15, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1015344
Igrot Moshe (1:166)
He assers there, although he acknowledges the fact that there are mattirim.May 15, 2014 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1015345
Personally, if Klal Yisroel can be Meikel like the Bach for Chodosh (which is M’dioraysa), they certainly can be Somech on the Rama, Tos. & Rashi for Zimrah.
Oh, is that the way halachah works? Take the “weakest link” and apply it across the board?
Maybe aderaba, we should copy what we do for ba’al yeiraeh of chametz, which, since we do bittul anyhow, is d’rabbonon, yet Klal Yisroel is quite machmir.
You can’t compare the various inyonim. Each series of halochos has its own history and dynamic of how the hanhagah developed.May 15, 2014 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1015346
We have all forgotton the reason why we have Sefira to begin with. If one is looking for loopholes then the inyan of Sefirah means diddly squat to him so nhe may as well listen to whatever he wants and shave and go to weddings. Cant we just survive without music during these days of reflection? If one was RL sitting shiva, would he ask a ” Sheyla” to turn on some background music?May 15, 2014 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1015347
DY: Yup, but there are Klalim. For example (as you brought) we are Machmir on Chometz for Pesach. Period. If we weren’t, Nisht Gebrokts would have been laughed out of existence (even Rebbe Meir wouldn’t hold of it!!). Another one is that we are Maikel by Safek D’Rabbanans. Yet another is that we (Ashkenazim) pasken like the Rama.
I stand by my point (at least for now).May 15, 2014 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1015348
Git: Great, I have your Heter. 🙂
The “Issur” of music (as mentioned by others) is not in Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Berurah, so there is really no reason to start. How about going around with ashes on your head? Isn’t that what you should do for Shiva?May 15, 2014 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1015349
Gavra, there are rules, but there are exceptions. Part of halachah is knowing which heterim were historically accepted and which were not.
The heter for chodosh, for example, surely would not have been accepted (and likely not offered) if not for the tremendous sha’as had’chak. How to deal with the contemporary situation is fascinating; I find some who feel that since the situation changed, we should therefore be machmir,but others feel that once the heter was accepted for generations, we can continue to be meikil. Both approaches are backed by legitimate talmidei chachomim. I know people who are makpid on yoshon but not C.Y., and people who are makpid on C.Y. but not yoshon. Each think the other’s got it backwards. (Puk chazi mai ama d’bar which is more common.)
The issur of music during Sefirah, OTOH, for whatever reason, has been widely accepted, and I think the acceptance by the tzibbur makes it binding on yechidim, even if the halachic basis for it may seem a bit flimsy to us.May 15, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1015350A nony mouseParticipant
Why is it that it’s only the music that we’re looking for heterim? Not the new clothing or the haircuts…May 16, 2014 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1015352👑RebYidd23Participant
Because there are no heterim for the haircuts, so why bother?May 16, 2014 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1015353
Cherrybim: I have a Shulchan Aruch (OC 560:3, I think) that says that music is Assur all year round.
DY: If I recall correctly (though I do recall having trouble understanding the T’shuvah, which I probably haven’t seen in a decade now), Igros Moshe YD 2:56 seems to Pasken like the Rama that music is only Assur if one listens to it when he wakes up and goes to sleep.
Git: That is an awful an incorrect attitude. If it’s Muttar, it’s Muttar. Do you shower at all suring Sefira? How could you ever think of showering when you should be in such mourning? Obviously, there are limits. And there is nothing wrong whatsoever in asking and trying to determine those limits. Nihugei Aveilus of Sefira are not even a Din Mid’rabannan. They are inherently very Meikil. You’re not “missing the point” if you try and figure out what the limits are.
That all being said, DY is absolutely correct when he points out that, in general, the Minhag was accepted very, very widely (certainly 20 years ago this was the practice) of not listening to any music during Sefira.May 16, 2014 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1015354pixelateMember
find me one place the Poskim say you can shower during Sefira.May 16, 2014 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1015355
DY, Sam2: Better, but still not there yet. Of course Chadash is an exception, but still the point is true. One should certainly be machmir on D’oraysahs before d’rabbanan, and d’rabannan before Minhag, and Minhag before who knows where music during sefirah came from. That 20 years ago people didn’t listen to music on Walkmans does not make a minhag in the age of Ipods. Who and where did the P’sak come from? Remember, the concept of portable music player didn’t exist 30-35 years ago, so you can’t say that was a minhag. And if we are discussing live music, Klal Yisroel has paskened (by the proliferation of concerts) like the Rama. (The why certainly is a good question, but the justification is more halachicly sourced than Chadosh). On Sefirah, for music that is danced to, then the SA is a source.
Music on sefirah doesn’t exist in the Gemorah (and neither does sefirah itself), the Rishonim, the Shulchan Aruch, etc. If the source is an Iggros Moshe that is heavily weighted against music as is, and we (as in Klal Yisroel) don’t really follow the teshuva, where did the issur come from?May 16, 2014 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1015356
Sam, this topic comes up during the 3 weeks as well. The point is there are those that are always looking for loopholes. Not everything is Mutar because it is not deoiyrasah. When you make a simcha, do you do mixed seating? My guess is that not. If so, why not? Its not even derabanan. The reason you do it is because of seyag and gedarim. So too with music. Halacha dictates that we should not make weddings not cut hair and refrain from things that cause us enjoyment and make us happy. Any type of music does that. So quit your nonsenseMay 16, 2014 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1015357
So too with music. Halacha dictates that we should not make weddings not cut hair and refrain from things that cause us enjoyment and make us happy.
Unless you have an ironclad source for the last phrase, I believe it is not true. M’maet B’simcha is only said about Av, not Sefirah. Perhaps that is the source of your confusion, that you are mistakenly equating the two.May 16, 2014 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1015358
Sam2, I don’t think YD 2:56 says that. What you probably thought he meant was the implication that it’s only b’veis hamishtaos, but if you look carefully, I think you’ll agree that he is referring to singing, not instruments.
In 137 he clearly assers instruments during Sefirah even when one is alone. He seems to hold that even the R”ma assers instruments to be played in public, so the additional chumra of sefira is for private listening.
In OC 3:87, he calls following the S.A. “raui l’hachmir” but “ein limchos b’yad hameikilim” to follow R”ma.May 16, 2014 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1015359
Git: Your translation of “Simcha” as “enjoyment” is not correct. And no, we are discussing whether “Halachah clearly dictates that any type of music causes us enjoyment and makes us happy”. You, apparently, see no need for discussion as you know everything here so much so that you think a discussion of the topic is inappropriate. Halachah is not Ish Kol HaYashar B’einav Ya’aseh. It’s a discussion because you can’t just come out of nowhere and think you know everything, certainly without a source. The Maskana of the discussion might be like you. But it is not inappropriate to try and actually determine the Halachah. That is ridiculous.May 16, 2014 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1015360
“So too with music. Halacha dictates that we should not make weddings not cut hair and refrain from things that cause us enjoyment and make us happy.”
You mean “and refrain from things that cause us” …to dance with gusto; as opposed to repeatedly putting one foot in front of the other.
Today, we lead such miserable nervous lives and many need music to alleviate misery and thereby enable them to come closer to Hashem because you can’t serve Hashem without being happy ..Ivdu es hashem b’simcha.May 16, 2014 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1015361
Sam, its a minhag that us Yidden have kept for generations. Comes along a smart alec like you or someother people and decide to throw away and do away with mesorah.You decided that its mutar. Forget about everyone else that holds Mesorah.
BTW, you know how the Reform movement started? The first questionable thing they did, was do away with Yekum Purkan. Here too, you disregard what our Mesorah teaches and make your own conclusions and decisions.
For shameMay 16, 2014 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1015362oyyoyyoyParticipant
My friends always used to say that once theyre listening to goyish music, which is pretty bad, they may as well listen during sefirah anyway right? Thats why u cant just say somethings assur because “hey, whats the worst that can happen”?
kol hamoysif goraih
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.