December 2, 2021 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2037216RomainParticipant
Is it realy true that half of israeilis are not realy jewish?
(5000,000) because ywn’s article contradics itself.
It says half of israeilis are not jewish but in the same time
Says that only half of one milion are not jewish and that
Would mean 1 in 20December 2, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2037293charliehallParticipant
More like 25%. The majority of the non-Jews are Arab Muslims.December 2, 2021 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #2037303
The zionist rabbanut under Druckman and others created hundreds of thousands of fake “converts”. Mostly Russian Goyim, but others as well, that remain halachic gentiles but the zionist State counts them as “Jews”.December 5, 2021 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2038302KGNParticipant
I don’t know if the converts are fake but personally want my kids to marry someone born Jewish in order to avoid the ספק.
And @charliehall, that would actually be a good joke.
I think the author was actually talking about those legally identified as “Israeli” which would include those who move to Israel by just having a Jewish father. That could be a fair number of people. I would be less concerned about the fact that there are these types of people in Israel so long as they were more honest about it and perhaps even have a system that identifies them as separate from people who are Halachically Jewish.December 7, 2021 12:30 am at 12:30 am #2038850
KGN, There are Arab Israelis if you are not aware, in addition to Arab non-citizens.
UJM, are you referring to the Army giyur? I am not familiar with the process and what kulos they are doing there, but there could be a good argument that if someone is ready to risk his life for Jewish people, it gives the person some tzad shus when we are judging their sincerity. I guess the question is – how much they volunteer. Was this their only one way ticket out of Ukraine to the West and they are stuck in Israel because of that, ir did they show volunteer preference for Israel v. some other livable places?December 7, 2021 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2038966
AAQ: I’m mainly (though not exclusively) referring to the so-called “conversions” of Russian gentiles in Israel, most of them too old for army service.December 7, 2021 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2039130NechomahParticipant
I’m sorry, but I wasn’t aware that simply being willing to defend the Jewish state is grounds for being considered a member of the Jewish people. I thought that one had to be willing to keep the mitzvos that Hashem gave to His people. These Russians who are maybe 1/8 Jewish come here, and perhaps they go into the army if they’re young enough, or their children do, and they get a nice salary while there plus plenty of benefits afterwards, and then they go and vote for the political parties that are out to destroy mitzvah observance in Israel. I’m not really sure they should be called Jewish.December 7, 2021 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2039145
I’m sure they should not be called Jewish.December 7, 2021 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2039151
> simply being willing to defend the Jewish state is grounds for being considered a member
I am not saying it is sufficient, I am saying it can be a factor. One issue for giyur is sincerity of the convert. Similarly to Shlomo’s times, one might say that if emigration from Russia to Israel would be conditioned on a conversion, we could suspect insincerity despite all other factors. I understand it is not a condition, as people immigrate together with their Jewish relatives. Still, a conversion would make life easier as you are saying – marriage, work, etc and makes a convert suspect. I thought the reference was to military giyurim and I counted this as a possible indication of sincere attachment to Am and Eretz Israel – presuming the person is not serving in combat role, and not in the office.
Such factors play role some times. I read that early Soviet dissidents were often married to non Jews. Someone did giyur to some of them while their husbands were in prison based mostly on their devotion and risk. These were more dramatic circumstances, of course.
More generally, quoting my F-I-L, in mixed marriages, it is a Jewish side that is doing the aveirah, while the non-Jewish one is a tzadik(es) – getting disapprovals from her society for marrying a Jew. In the case of anti-semitic Russian society, it is even more true.December 8, 2021 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2039424NechomahParticipant
But what does it mean “sincerity”. In my understanding, it is sincerity in keeping the mitzvos.December 12, 2021 6:05 am at 6:05 am #2040640BY1212Participant
Ariel Sharon stated in an interview that I read (I forget where but – definitely not a ‘yeshiva world’ type publication) that the state knew that a huge chunk of the USSR olim were not Jewish and it was sof maaseh bmachshava techila as the actual reason for the Russian Aliya of the early 90’s was in order to halt or at least stall the religious demographic takeover that was certain to change the nature of state of Israel. To bring over actual cossacks into Israel like liberman et Al was a way of regaining the control over the state they were quickly losing in the aftermath of the Begin years.
It is only fitting that the elements of the state which only wishes to dilute and mute Jewish identity would go on to make people who were brought to Israel to suppress Jewishness would be declared the actual Jews.
The halakhic discussions are beside the point. The whole point of these conversions, halakhic or not, is the dejudaizing of the state. It is unfortunate that many elements of dati Jews ascribe infallibility to the state like old school Catholics to the pope. And completely justify anything the state does. We should only be as subservient to Hashem as they are to there avoda Zara.December 12, 2021 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2040733
Nechomah, as I am not familiar with exact procedures mentioned here, I do not have an opinion on how rigorous they are and – if they have lower standards – whether they are justified. I just pointed out one extra consideration for these conversions v. , say, someone converting in NYC for marriage considerations.
BY1212, we were able to take at least a million of Jewish souls in the 90s who were behind the iron curtain for 70 years already. I don’t think there was an ability to immediately vet all families for everyone being Jewish, and presumably there would be many who would stay if their non-Jewish spouses were not allowed in. There was no way to predict whether USSR was dissolved forever or would come back in 5 years or would be a mild dictatorship like it is now. US and Israel succeeded before with getting a trickle of Soviet Jews out in the 70s and then it stopped.
Halachically, when we do pidyon sheviim – do we vet every person to be a Jew, or can we just say, there is 50% surcharge for saving each of the Jews?
Also, note that these non-Jews married Jews in an anti-Semitic country. How bad can they be (I am sure some are, I am talking averages here).December 12, 2021 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #2040786HistorianParticipant
Number relates to half of Russian latest immigrants maybe?December 12, 2021 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2040808
Historian, I agree that latest immigrants is a different issue and probably have more non-Jews – same as with Beta Israel, most Jews came first, intermarried and converted later on. There is less of emergency now and should be no excuse of not checking them out. We were talking about large aliya of 1990s – and later conversion (of them and their children)December 13, 2021 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2041065AshParticipant
There are Europeans who would reject a USA shidduch due to the lax standards of giyur in America in comparison to Europe and (for now) EY.December 13, 2021 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2041071
Ash, what you mean is a shidduch with a Ger or descendant of a Ger.December 14, 2021 7:01 am at 7:01 am #2041455Avi KParticipant
I read that there are 300K immigrants from the former Soviet Union who are not recognized as being Jewish. This undoubtedly includes many who are but can’t prove it. It was very advantageous to be categorized as a Russian on one’s identity card (Jewish was considered a separate nationality along with Ukrainian, etc.). As they generally have very small families and have formed a separate sub-culture (many times I hear teenagers speaking Russian to each other, unlike the children of Jewish olim who speak to each other in Hebrew even if they speak to their parents in another language) the problem will eventually go away. Moslems, Xtians and Druze do not marry out.December 14, 2021 8:28 am at 8:28 am #2041508
Avi, how will “the problem eventually go away”?January 2, 2022 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #2047446
interesting poll results from Israel, not new just happened on an article. If this contradicts some other numbers, please post!
80% of Jewish Israelis believe in G-d,
another one: 65% convinced of His Existence (60% in US, 40% Italy, 20% UK)
65% consider him author of Torah and mitzvot
Immigrants from FSU:
55% believe in G-d (70% second generation)
24% keeping kosher home (50% second generation)January 2, 2022 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #2047463
They should expel all the Goyim who immigrated to Eretz Yisroel, whether because they descended from some Jewish grandfather, or they had a fake conversion or however else they got there.January 2, 2022 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #2047488n0mesorahParticipant
Why does it bother you if non-Jews live in E”Y?January 2, 2022 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #2047505
N0m: Halacha has what to say regarding selling land in EY to non-Jews. Or to bring them from outside to EY for permanent residency, for that matter.January 2, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2047512n0mesorahParticipant
Okay. It does not explain anything, but I understand.January 3, 2022 12:26 am at 12:26 am #2047595
If true, the numbers for 2nd generation immigrants are very encouraging. We do not have a similar success in USA. What percentage of R- and C- Jews eventually have kosher homes? 5? 10? Here we have Jews coming after several generations of total assimilation and having 25% kosher homes and their children – 50%?! Consider those 20-30% of non-Jews as the price we paid for saving a mln+ of Jewish neshomos from communist gehenom.
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