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Why must everyone judge a person based on the fact that they have non religious siblings? Is it really fair to say “No” to a date with a girl or boy because of this? How about finding out about the actual person you are going to date rather than their family (of which they have no control.)
In my opinion a religious person who is involved with non-religious people is wiser and stronger than others. What a judgmental world we live in.
Why must everyone judge a person based on the fact that they have non religious siblings?
Who says everyone does?
“An apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.” It’s definitely at best a generality, but it might have some validity. Unfortunately for some, its easier to jump to conclusions than to make an informed inquiry to test it. Either way its not a good basis for being judgmental.
No it’s not fair, but true menschen do NOT do that and people who do are not good shidduch material anyway.
The Gemara does suggest “yivdok biacheha: check out her brothers because children are frequently similar to the brothers of the mother.
I think most people don’t judge much based on this. But they probably should.
Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up. And it stands to reason that the siblings will have suffered from it either. Not very fair, but such is life.
Most people get their rebellious ideas in yeshiva/camp. It’s more likely because of the yeshiva than a parent.
RABBAIM makes a very good point.
Also, even if we don’t judge a person based on their frei siblings, we surely judge the sibling himself who discarded the Torah for their terrible actions.
Most people get their rebellious ideas in yeshiva/camp.
Nobody has gone off the derech because of “ideas” since Acher.
Besides, the siblings probably went to the same yeshiva and camp.
Csar, what happened to al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkomo?
You refuse to judge Levi Aron until you reach his place?
You refuse to judge Levi Aron until you reach his place?
No, I’ll make an exception for him. I judge him to be insane, and he should be locked in an insane asylum for the rest of his life.
Happy now?
csar- you cant compare someone who harms another person to someone who went off the derech. If i see anyone harming anyone else, i judge them.I dont care who the person is, Jew or non-Jew, frum or not frum, yeshivish or modern orthodox or chasidish…. However if a person goes off the derech, thats between them and God, and we have no right to judge them.
It’s precisely this attitude that causes so many to leave the community
True Jewish marriages are between families. Tainted families like these should marry with each other only.
I don’t think the memra of yivdok be’achehah is relevant here, it seems to refer to middos rather than maasim. Rov bonim domim le’achei ha’em dosen’t mean in frumkeit – that’s your responsibility, it means in character. There are significant roshei yeshiva whose siblings are not frum.
Since when is not wanting to marry someone called being judgemental? You don’t marry someone because they deserved you.
“Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up.” Yes, that’s what I thought till it happened to me. There are many reasons for a child going OTD. But it is not always the fault of the parent.
‘Rabbaim’ said…
“The Gemara does suggest “yivdok biacheha: check out her brothers because children are frequently similar to the brothers of the mother.”
I am not familiar with this Gemara and I don’t know in what context it makes this statement. It is definitely not a general rule, because I can say with absolute certainty that I am as different from my mother’s brothers as one could possibly be.
Popa: “Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up.”
Do you honestly believe that?
popa_bar_abba “Kids go off the derech because their parents are messed up.”
That is one of the most offensive comments that I have ever read here. Kids go off the derech for numerous reasons. Blaming parents (who are heartbroken over their child’s decsions) is heartless and disgusting.
popa I’m getting the idea that you didn’t have a social life in high school. Because if you would you would know how someone’s social life can affect someone. Many times it’s due to the crowd they hang out with. Does your home accept rebellious or potential rebellious kids or does the school?
popa: lo ra’isa eno rayah.
I know some wonderful frum kdis whose parents are very messed up (the mom in particular), but those kids are amazing. I also knwo 8 kids from the same wonderful family. 7 of them are amazing, frum, delightful young adults. One went OTD. it is dangerous to make assumptions about why this happens. There are many factors at play. In the case of the one child, much had to do with things occurring in his Yeshivah, the same one his brothers went to and which was a wonderful, nurturing environment for the others, but not a good place for him.
“Laughing is good,” it has nothing to do with my comment. We all use the word “shidduch,” meaning matching as opposed to mismatching. Just as we check out the madreiga of the yungerleit to make a good match, we do it with the families too. The reason why a child went OTD r”l hardly matters, let alone trying to figure out who “caused” it. The mere fact that it happened lowers the madreiga of everyone in the home because of things that were said and done in the home. The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
I don’t think poppa bar abba is heartless, he is just parroting what others say and believes this to be true. Hopefully his kids will all be frum and noone off the derech. I don’t wish this on anyone.
i believe it was the steipler gaon zt”l who said that nowadays (that was some 30 years ago) if a child goes OTD rch”l, that does NOT have a bearing on the siblings, since the street has shlepped him away
how much more so in 2012 – Hashem yishmor aleinu !
The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
Everyone?
Loyal Jew-“The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.”
You make it sound like BTs are another species. As a son of a BT, i find it offensive that you consider my home on a lower madreiga because of this.
There are a lot of factors that contribute to a kid going off the Derech that we don’t understand especially when judging from the outside.
In one case I know of, one child in the family was born with a uniquely challenging personality. He was never diagnosed as ADD or anything strong enough to warrant medication.
However, as the schools years went on, he went in a wrong direction. His difficult personality contributed to his lack of connection with parents and other positive adult mentors.
Each personality of every child in a family is different. Although the parents may be good parents, for reasons beyond our understanding, they so far have not been successful with THIS child only.
With all due respect, laughing is good, if you are involved in shidduchim long enough, you will notice an intersting phenomenon: People are not just judgmental with regard to someone having non religious siblings. They are more fussy & picky than a teenager picking out something to wear on her first day at school. They nix perfectly fine shidduchim based on all sorts of nonsense. There are those who are particular about weight, size, background (OMG- NO Sephardim!),what yeshiva or seminary the other party attended, even (no, I’m not making this one up) what neighborhood they live in. The list is endless, and limited only by their nonexistent awareness of their own shortcomings. Then these finicky, demanding young people, or their parents, (who are baffled at the fact that their precious treasure of a son/ daughter is still single), will cry & benoan the fact that they can’t find their bashert!!!
The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
No, everyone does not agree. I know many happy, stable, couples where one was a BT and the other FFB. I’m sure they would not agree, nor would their children and grandchildren.
For all those who would not marry into a Family with non-religious members, I guess you wouldnt marry into Rav Shachs family either
I know of a family where the parents are the best Jews that have 2 sons. The older one went off the derech when he was 13. and ended up doing the worst aveiros and married a shiksa. The younger one a first-rate yeshiva yungleit married into a a terrible family, but B”H he married his B”T wife. how do such wonderful parents have such a OTD son and allow their yeshiva son to marry a B”T from such a bad family? By the way the mother also comes from an awful family.
His difficult personality contributed to his lack of connection with parents and other positive adult mentors.
When parents cannot establish a relationship with their son because he has a “difficult personality”, it seems quite bizarre that my statement is being questioned.
Zahavasdude: Rav Shach’s son was always religious.
The problem isn’t so far from that of BTs, and here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.
As a Ba’al Teshuva who married someone who is FFB, I can state with absolute confidence that NOT *everyone* agrees with your statement. I have been married for 21 years to the finest spouse a person can have and have three wonderful children of this marriage. I can tell you that a marriage between a Ba’al Teshuva and someone who is FFB can work and produce a perfectly fine Bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel.
Furthermore, in this age of the shidduch crisis, I find it utterly mind-boggling that you are seeking to *further* limit the number of potential marriage partners for any specific individual.
In addition, think about the message that your statement sends to potential Ba’alei Teshuva: “yeah, you’re welcome to come… until you want to date my daughter — then I don’t want to see you.”
The Wolf
zdad: He was religious, just not charedi. He isn’t talked about because he was a secular-type academic not because he was a secular Jew.
Loyal Jew, “here everyone agrees that they should be matched with their own.” I see, thankfully, that others have responded to your comment, but I couldn’t let it pass. Who is this “everyone”??? Hopefully, the correct term would be N O B O D Y . In addition, I detest & object to your terminology- ” their own “!? Are BT’s some sort of sub-species? What exactly are you trying to say? Next you’re going to post on the “inaccurate things teachers tell us” thread, that we did NOT all stand together at Har Sinai!?
I don’t think any of Dayan Abramski’s grandchildren are religious
I don’t think any of Dayan Abramski’s grandchildren are religious
And…
I get that there are alot of harmonious marriages between one and the other, but might you agree that BTs and FFBs are often (not always) very different from each other and relate better with someone from a common background (probably more by FFBs who are less adaptable)? Maybe this is partly what it is and is often misinterpreted as a rejection when the Baal Tshuva is also at fault for having an inferiority complex and thinks that the Tachlis is ‘acceptance’ by FFBs, which is demonstrated absolutely by marrying into Frum families (and also hypocritically shun BTs while doing so) and that a rejection is a rejection of them when it’s really (also) a rejection of their silliness? It may be a whole vicious cycle and I’m sure FFBs are at fault for exploiting that weakness with a lack of sensitivity and acceptance and just by being inconsiderate (and who knows maybe there’s just some truth in the discrimination, but not because of lack of merits or character…)… whatever. Rant. Love you BTs.
Love you BTs.
Except if we want to marry into your family, where we should “stick to our own kind…”
The Wolf
And..there is a nice piece of Reb Elchonon z”l on the gemara where Chizkiya did not want to have a child becuase he knew he would not be frum – the navi said to him – behadi kavshei derachmana lamah lach – Reb Elchonon says this is a klal – we can’t know what the outcome of our actions is ever going to be and it’s not our business – our chiyuv is simply shemiras hamitzvos
love you anyways
I am married to a BT, whose parents were fully supportive of his desire to be frum, though they were not going to become frum with him. Many families are NOT as supportive, viewing the religious “nonsense” as a betrayal of what they consider to be their good enough values and lifestyle. I used to think that was very wrong on their parts, until I put it in perspective. How many modern orthodox Jews feel similarly when their wonderful kids go away to E”Y and come back in Black Hats! Many of them view their children as rejecting their family values and traditions. And while it is not EXACTLY the same, it is sufficiently so to help me see what truly amazing in-laws I had, to have been so proud of their frum son and the Torah learning that their grandchildren acquired.
Loyal Jew is correct. He should find similar perfect bigoted families and stick to his own kind. I guess Yitzvhak and Rivka were tainted because of Esav
I guess Yitzvhak and Rivka were tainted because of Esav
I guess Rivka agreed with you, seeing as she wasn’t worried about Yishmael.
Although, as you point out, they did have a son Esav….
Loyal Jew cannot comprehend that other religious Jews think anything other than his (not from Torah) opinions. Therefore, he assumes that everyone agrees to every one of his ridiculous opinions (hence his constant claims to know what all the Gedolim think). There is no longer any reason to be Mocheh the generalities he makes as we all realize by now that they’re just foolish.
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