(Not) eating fish and cheese together

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  • #602090

    Lay
    Member

    Does anyone know why some people do eat fish and cheese together and others don’t?

    #853335

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    Because their fathers didn’t

    #853336

    cantoresq
    Member

    What? Is this a joke? Lox and cream cheese with onion on a bagel is now subject to a chumra?

    #853337

    besalel
    Participant

    its in the beis yosef on the tur but not the shulchan aruch (which was written later). the kabbalists give it credence.

    funny that the best known ashkenzi dish, bagel with cream cheese and lox, is deemed unfit by these sources.

    some sefaradim do not eat it based on this beis yosef and the ben ish chai’s kabbalistic analysis of same. most folks do not live by the kabbala but by halacha. since its halachic origin is murky (some reputable poskim hold its a TYPO in the tur and it should have read meat and fish) they eat it.

    #853338

    sem graduate
    Member

    The shulchan aruch writes in one place not to eat milk and fish together. Everyone agrees that this is a mistake and it was meant to say milk and meat. However, those who don’t eat it feel that a mistake from the mechaber is still something that should be followed/kept because he was mechaber with rh”k.

    #853339

    oomis
    Participant

    It’s a minhag for some not to, but it is NOT assur. Otherwise we could never eat tuna melts. I always thought, rightly or wrongly, that the reason for that minhag was because we can’t eat basar and chalav, and fish are a type of “basar” when you come right down to it,so maybe the halacha extended for some even to not mixing FISH and chalav. It’s a stretch, perhaps, but i could see the line of reasoning, if that in fact IS the line of reasoning.

    #853340

    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    i heard some ppl do it but for health reasons i don’t think it has anything to do with halacha….

    #853341

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What? Is this a joke? Lox and cream cheese with onion on a bagel is now subject to a chumra?

    Wow. Your vitriol really knows no bounds. And it is amazing how ignorant you are. One would think you would at least find out a little bit before going on your anti torah rants.

    It is the Beis Yosef (You know, like Rav Yosef Karo, you know, like the greatest halachic codifier since the rambam, you heard of him, yes?). Many sfardim follow it.

    Really, I used to think you were anti-torah. But now I see that you simply don’t know what the torah is. You should learn a couple of pages at least, before you start criticizing.

    #853342

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Some chassidim (and Sephardim, I believe) do not eat fish and dairy together. Not new.

    #853343

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    I have sephardi friends who do not eat fish and cheese together. There are other things they do eat (I’m not just talking about Pesach) that I wouldn’t, and that’s their Rav’s psak, so who am I to judge?

    #853344

    besalel
    Participant

    wandering chana: most sepharadim also refrain from eating chudush. also, the sefaradic standard for glatt is more restrictive than the ashkenazi. also, their stance on bishul askim make most kosher restaurants off limits (although rav ovadia does say that bishul akum may not apply to restaurants at all so sefaradim can rely on us for restaurants). also on peysach, some sefaradim (afghanis and some bukharians and iranians) wont eat sugar, believe it or not, on peysach.

    on the other hand, most sefaradim eat gelatin (as permitted by rav ovadia). they eat some kitniyos (there are few sefaradim that eat all kitniyos). sefaradim never considered gebruchs on peysach to be problematic. sefardic poskim allow swordfish while ashkenazi do not. sefaradim eat egg matzo on peysach while ashkenazi refrain.

    #853345

    TheGoq
    Participant

    In Italy it is sacrilege to add cheese to a dish that contains fish.

    #853346

    Toi
    Participant

    Sephardim dont mix fish and milk products due to sakanah.

    #853347

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Rabbeinu Bachya mentions this in the name of the doctors. He also gives it a reason Al Pi Sohd. I don’t think we have to woory about the opinion of doctors from the 1300s, but he says it, others have said it, and it’s done by many.

    #853348

    Sam2
    Participant

    At one point people thought it was a Sakanah. The Beis Yosef brings it down (in the Siman about Basar B’chalav, not Sakanos if I recall correctly), though many later sources think it’s a typo and should read fish and meat (to keep in line with the Siman about Sakanos), not fish and milk.

    #853349

    uneeq
    Member

    realisraeli:The shulchan aruch writes in one place not to eat milk and fish together. Everyone agrees that this is a mistake and it was meant to say milk and meat.

    A) Not everyone agrees this is a mistake, see the levush. Also, aside for Maran, Rabbenu Bahya who came before him, assurs for health reasons.

    B) Those that claim that it’s a mistake claim it was meant to say FISH and MEAT not MILK and MEAT.

    #853350

    uneeq
    Member

    To those that think that this is some sort of chumro or that sakana is not really ossur- you should know that something that’s assur because of sakana is more chamur than a regular issur. There is even a machlokes by fish and meat (and probably here too) whether batel beshishim applies or if it cannot be batel at all. That would make it more chamur (in a certain aspect) than basser becholov which is only ossur until 60.

    #853351

    Sam2
    Participant

    Uneeq: Yes, but if it’s Assur Mishum Sakanah and we know that the Sakanah no longer exists then the Issur goes away completely.

    #853352

    sam4321
    Participant

    The Pischei Tshuva(9) brings down the Adnei Paz who brings in the name of HaBachaye that fish and cheese and fish with milk it is assur even midaRabbanan ,but fish and butter is ok(see the whole Pischei Tshuva).

    #853353

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    “kol echod keminhogo “. I am an ahskenazi so I have never followed this minhag- although I do not mix fish and meat (as per sakonoh). BTW- this is why one has whisky/brandy after the fish on Friday nights.

    The one genuine news I learned is that (from besalel) the sefardim eat swordfish! Now ,how about sturgeon? Would love to eat caviar once in my life….

    #853354

    uneeq
    Member

    Sam2: Uneeq: Yes, but if it’s Assur Mishum Sakanah and we know that the Sakanah no longer exists then the Issur goes away completely

    True. But prove that it no longer exists. That is the whole basis of the machlokes, whether there really is sakana by fish and dairy. While looking for proof, try proving that fish and meat is a sakana.

    #853356

    Sam2
    Participant

    My swordfish post didn’t make it through. Oh well. I didn’t expect it to. Rav Elyashiv was once shown a swordfish though and said that it was Kosher.

    #853357

    oomis
    Participant

    Would love to eat caviar once in my life….”

    There is such a thing as kosher caviar (it tastes vile to me, way too salty). Caviar is only fish eggs. ever have roe with your gefilte fish???? Now THAT’S good stuff!

    #853358

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Would love to eat caviar once in my life….”

    So once upon a time I caught a salmon in Alaska, and I then I slit it open to gut it, and it was full of eggs because it was spawning. So I just grabbed one out, and ate it. Goo and all.

    #853359

    cinderella
    Member

    “So once upon a time I caught a salmon in Alaska, and I then I slit it open to gut it, and it was full of eggs because it was spawning. So I just grabbed one out, and ate it. Goo and all.”

    *gag*

    #853360

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Ewww!

    #853361

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Uneeq, the source of this Sakana is some 14th century doctors. The proof that it is not a Sakana now is today’s doctors. It is kept anyhow since it was mentioned, and She’al Avicha Viyagedcha. Also, Rabbeinu Bachya connected it to Divrei Torah.

    #853362

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Jsut because it was thought to be a “sakana” in the past doesnt mean we need to follow it today

    The Gemorah in Pesachim I think says its forbidden to travel at night because of the danger. I dont think anyone here follows that

    #853363

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Gemorah in Pesachim I think says its forbidden to travel at night because of the danger. I dont think anyone here follows that

    So then I went to visit my grandmother. And I wanted to leave in the evening. So I made sure to leave before shekia (to drive several hours) because I knew she’d be scared if I left at night. I told here I was leaving “??? ???”

    #853364

    oomis
    Participant

    Halacha, we ALWAYS have to follow. But lots of these things that were not halacha, but rather only considered to be prevailing wisdom/advice for the times.

    #853365

    uneeq
    Member

    HaLevi:Uneeq, the source of this Sakana is some 14th century doctors. The proof that it is not a Sakana now is today’s doctors.

    I asked for a source and you tell me that today’s doctors say it’s not a sakana. I’ve never seen a tshuva that quotes modern doctors and I doubt you have either. Also, you would have to show me where there are studies that all different combinations of fish and dairy are not unhealthy. And while you’re there find me a study that says eating fish and meat is unhealthy, which I doubt you have seen either, but still doesn’t stop you from keeping that “minhag”.

    Bottom line: If you have no have no full proof that something is NOT sakana, you would have to follow your Mesora on what the great Poskim held. That is why no one would eat fish and meat these days, even if no doctors cite it as being sakana. By fish and dairy however, being that I’m Sephardic, I go after Maran that nobody has proven wrong yet. (By the way he’s 16th century not the 14th).

    If your Ashkenaz, you can go after the Darkei Moshe, Shach and Taz that all argue and hold there is no sakana.

    #853366

    Sam2
    Participant

    Uneeq: I’ve never seen a tshuva that quotes modern doctors.

    You’ve never looked at a contemporary T’shuva?

    #853367

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    uneeq

    Do you travel at night, Its not just the Gemorah that says its a Sakana and forbidden

    #853368

    uneeq
    Member

    Sam2:Uneeq: I’ve never seen a tshuva that quotes modern doctors.

    You’ve never looked at a contemporary T’shuva?

    I was trying to bait someone to quote me the sources, because I’ve never looked it up myself. I did once hear that one study showed fish and dairy to be ok, while another study showed that it really is a problem. For that reason I am inconclusive until I see a good, indisputable modern source.

    #853369

    uneeq
    Member

    zahavasdad:Do you travel at night, Its not just the Gemorah that says its a Sakana and forbidden

    I am sure in this scenario that a sakana existed that nowadays does not. However, by fish and dairy, some argue as to whether any sakana exists at all, and for a health sakana we must look for substantial evidence brought by doctors to prove what is right and wrong.

    #853370

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You really missed the point. The source of the Sakana is not from Chazal. It is from the 14th century doctors. There is no reason that I have to take their musings into consideration.

    If we were to worry about what every doctor of every period worried about we would be down to nothing.

    It is kept out of reverence, but to say that it can’t be Battul B’rov is really going out on a limb.

    #853371

    uneeq
    Member

    HaLeivi:The source of the Sakana is not from Chazal. It is from the 14th century doctors. There is no reason that I have to take their musings into consideration.

    First, you think that if you repeat yourself assertion that it’s all based on 14th century doctors then you can throw everything out. If the Bet Yosef (16 century as you like to ignore) took their musings into consideration, then you shall also. Saying that you don’t have to even to consider that it might be unhealthy without consulting with modern doctors is just downright disrespectful to the biggest Posek of the world.

    You really missed the point.

    I really think you did. You are grabbing at thin air to try to create a new kula. That even though you don’t have a clue what modern science says about fish and dairy, you can automagically assume that there is evidence to back you up.

    #853372

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Why are you willing to admit that we dont have to follow a Chazal that maybe the Sakana doesnt exist anymore

    BUT

    you say something from the 14-16 centuries is most certainly incombant upon us to follow.

    I would think that something from Chazal trumps something from the S’A

    #853373

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Assertion? That’s who Rabbeinu Bachya quotes. That is the only source earlier than the Beis Yoseph. It is not from Chazal. That’s all.

    The fact that it is not on any list of unhealthy foods should be enough to tell you what modern doctors think of it. If you so please, ask your nutritionist, unless you think he’ll laugh at you.

    I have nothing against keeping it. I keep it, too. But I don’t worry about it as if it is an actual Sakana. Had it been from the Gemara, or had it originated from our Chachamim I wouldn’t say this. But, once you know where it comes from it doesn’t matter how many times it’ll be quoted or mentioned.

    The fact that Rabbeinu Bachya lends Divrei Torah to it and suggests a reason Al Pi Sohd is more of a reason to keep it, but that still does not render it a Sakana.

    And if my attitude is to be Mashlich Acharei Gavi opinions of the 14th century doctors, well, I’m sure you know that modern doctors agree with that. They were not known to be very scientific about their assumptions. You know that the Beis Yoseph didn’t make it up, nor did he or any Posek review the data to check the assertion. They merely relayed what was told or written. That doesn’t make it more of a Sakana. Do you really wonder what modern doctors say about it? Now, that’s a bit dishonest.

    Here’s another question. Does it cause heart attacks, insomnia, ADHD, hiccups, lyme disease, housemade’s knee, floaters, schizophrenia? The biggest reason to keep it is to listen to the Poskim. Perhaps it’s a Sakana not to listen, but I’m talking about it being Batul Beshishim.

    #853374

    peacefull
    Member

    @ zahasdad: it seems that you didn’t read well what HaLevi wrote. he didn’t intent to make Kulahs, he instead only strengthened it by saying that the reason that those who keep this Chumrah – Halachah is because of early Gedolim such as Rabbenu Bachya & of course the later great Gedolim as the Beit Yosef.

    I actually saw one eating sardeans & drinking milk together & he was choking on every sip, etc,

    Torah is life.

    #853375

    Sam2
    Participant

    Uneeq: Keivan D’dashu Bei Rabim Pok Chazi Mai Ima Davar, regardless of what the doctors currently say (and no one says that it’s actually harmful; there are just some small inconclusive studies).

    #853376

    essy8
    Member

    persians are makbid on dairy and fish together, although only cheese and fish together is the actual problem. i heard years ago that cream cheese and lox is ok because cream cheese isn’t actually cheese as defined by halacha. anyone know if this is valid?

    #853377

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If I ate Sardines Id probably choke too

    #853378

    uneeq
    Member

    Sam2: It seems that you are the only one that knows of modern studies. And you hint that they conclude that it is dangerous. You say that it was inconclusive because it was a small study group.

    I think that’s a good enough reason to pursue the truth about it.

    I wouldn’t agree that it’s considered in Keivan DeDashu Bei Rabim because that which the Rabim do something means that you know that it doesn’t cause heart attacks, schizphrenia, etc. A regular Dashu Bei Rabim would be when everyone goes down a certain road and everyone lives. Where the only danger might be demons, and everyone living proves it wrong.

    Since no conclusive studies have been done to study the effects of how fish and dairy might negatively affect ones body, I don’t believe it considered in Dashu Bei. It could be that many of the people that eat fish and dairy (chas vesholom) are getting the bad effects of it and with no (conclusive) studies, you are assuming that no one has a problem.

    #853379

    Sam2
    Participant

    Someone on the page of the Shulchan Aruch points out that even if you hold fish and milk is a Sakanah then fish and butter isn’t (cream cheese probably counts as butter).

    #853380

    cherrybim
    Participant

    We always eat dairy and fish together; eating alone is so boring.

    #853381

    Sam2
    Participant

    Uneeq: There are no conclusive studies because no one cares enough to do it. Everyone knows there’s no problem. When someone has a decent study against it I’ll start worrying.

    #853382

    uneeq
    Member

    Sam2: And may I ask why you wouldn’t eat fish and meat together, even though there are no conclusive studies that it’s unhealthy? And I’m sure that you can assume that there are no studies because everyone knows that it causes cancer, right?

    #853383

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    THOUGH SHALT NOT PASKEN FROM THE COFFEEROOM.

    I thought I should add this as no one has added it yet! for further details please see the thread: rules of the coffeeroom!

    (wow that felt good, almost like a mod!)

    ;end rant

    #853384

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    THOUGH SHALT NOT PASKEN FROM THE COFFEEROOM.

    I thought I should add this as no one has added it yet! for further details please see the thread: rules of the coffeeroom!

    (wow that felt good, almost like a mod!)

    ;end rant

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