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  • #693104

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    People determining right and wrong from their “feelings” about what the Torah demands from us.

    And how do you know the Torah wants us to not say “good morning” to anyone? How do you know exactly was it covered under “Tarbeh?”

    What does a Talmid Chochom tell you that the Torah wants regarding this question.

    Oddly enough, my rav tells me that there is nothing wrong with a polite “good morning” or “good Shabbos” to someone.

    The Wolf

    #693105

    feivel
    Participant

    squeak

    my point may be tangential to the particular issue being addressed here, but it is an extremely important and fundamental point that I felt needed to be pointed out, especially as it is an affliction among many of the more prolific posters here.

    it is also probably a point made in vain, but i still feel obligated to make it.

    #693106

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes wolf- al tarbeh meaning only whatever is necessary.

    So, I suppose that all unnecessary conversation with one’s wife is also forbidden, since the Mishna specifically includes one’s wife?

    So, no saying “good morning” to my wife? It’s not really necessary. No talking about books we’ve read? It’s not really necessary either. No pleasant chat over dinner unless we’re talking household matters? No talking while we’re taking a walk?

    The Wolf

    #693107

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, it isn’t rude not to greet others THAT U HAVE NO CLUE WHO THEY ARE AND U JUST PASS THEM BY ON THE STREET.

    You don’t have to shout. And yes, I believe it is rude. Would you walk by someone of the same gender on Shabbos and not say “Good Shabbos?”

    Does your Rav greet your wife on the street? Does his Rebbetzin greet you? It isn’t a mitzvah in theleast bit.

    In fact, my rav has made the point publicly that it is common courtesy and there is nothing wrong with saying “Good morning” or “Good Shabbos” to someone of the opposite gender.

    The Wolf

    #693109

    feivel
    Participant

    wolf

    you need a debating refresher course

    i said nothing about your position on the issues

    as a matter of fact i tend to agree with you.

    i was only commenting on a particular manner of approaching life that is so prevalent among Jews in modern liberal america

    #693110

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i was only commenting on a particular manner of approaching life that is so prevalent among Jews in modern liberal america

    Fair enough. My apologies.

    The Wolf

    #693112

    smartcookie
    Member

    Sorry wolf, but I did feel like shouting! (Talk about being rude:)

    First of all-did your rav mean greeting aquaintances or greeting absolutely never met before and never will meet people.

    I don’t greet ANY people that don’t know me,whether male or female. And I wouldn’t feel good if they would greet me. I only need people who know me to greet me.

    Anyway wolf-Pleeeeeaaaasssseeee don’t act silly. You know a wife is different. If my hub wouldn’t speak extra with me, then I would be very hurt and probably divorce him. A couple has a special relationship that they have to keep.

    But that woman across the street who never met you before, shouldn’t be greeted. Sorry.

    #693113

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    First of all-did your rav mean greeting aquaintances or greeting absolutely never met before and never will meet people.

    Does it matter? Why is a stranger different (vis-a-vis “al tarbeh…”) than Mrs. Katz, the wife of a fellow who davens in my shul?

    Anyway wolf-Pleeeeeaaaasssseeee don’t act silly. You know a wife is different.

    On the contrary — look at the Mishna — it goes out of it’s way to INCLUDE one’s wife. Why should one’s wife be different when the Mishna specifically includes her in “al tarbeh…?”

    The Wolf

    #693114

    Max Well
    Member

    “I don’t greet ANY people that don’t know me”

    Where were YOU brought up!?!

    “If my hub wouldn’t speak extra with me, then I would be very hurt and probably divorce him.”

    There is no basis for a wife to divorce her husband for this reason, so you would have no grounds for divorce. (Besides, he has a mishna for not talking EXTRA.)

    #693115

    says who
    Member

    I am surprised.

    Do you people consider extra with your wife the same as extra with someone on the street??????????

    #693116

    squeak
    Participant

    Why should one’s wife be different when the Mishna specifically includes her in “al tarbeh…?”

    I have been anticipating the response that other women should be excluded to a higher degree due to the statement “B’ishto omeres, kal v’chomer b’eishes chaveroi”.

    As I am about to sign off, and as of yet no one has made that statement, I am reduced to merely pre-empting it.

    Day’yo lavoi min hadin leh’yos k’niddon

    #693117

    smartcookie
    Member

    Wolf-im not saying right or wrong, but if you know the woman from wherever, then I can UNDERSTAND WHY you would greet her. Same with one’s wife.

    But a woman that you never met b4?

    Maxwell- I was brought up in a very kind and friendly home. But we don’t greet every person we pass.

    Yes,if someone asks me to help out with directions(even opposite gender), of course ill smile to them.

    I don’t know about you, but I live in brooklyn, and I pass hundreds of people a day. Not possible to nod my head 5 times in 1 second….

    #693118

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Day’yo lavoi min hadin leh’yos k’niddon

    Not all of us are talmiedi chachomim. Please translate.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    #693119

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Do you people consider extra with your wife the same as extra with someone on the street??????????

    I don’t. But if people are going to throw “Al tarbeh…” around, then they can’t just ignore the second part of the statement.

    The Wolf

    #693120

    says who
    Member

    I am surprised.

    Do you people consider extra with your wife the same as extra with someone on the street??????????

    If greeting someone on the street is considered extra, it doesn’t mean that talking during dinner with your spouse is extra.

    I’m surprised that I have to write it.

    #693121

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf-im not saying right or wrong, but if you know the woman from wherever, then I can UNDERSTAND WHY you would greet her. Same with one’s wife.

    But a woman that you never met b4?

    It’s not a matter of it being a woman. It’s a matter of it being a person. The fact that the person is a woman, or a non-Jew or a child, or an old person is really incidental.

    The Wolf

    #693122

    mosherose
    Member

    “So, I suppose that all unnecessary conversation with one’s wife is also forbidden, since the Mishna specifically includes one’s wife?

    So, no saying “good morning” to my wife? It’s not really necessary. No talking about books we’ve read? It’s not really necessary either. No pleasant chat over dinner unless we’re talking household matters? No talking while we’re taking a walk?”

    YES thats exactly what it means. You talk to yur wife so that yur house can function normally and you raise the kids. Theres no heter for frivilus talk like good morning or talking about books or anything else thats not important.

    #693123

    mosherose
    Member

    “it doesn’t mean that talking during dinner with your spouse is extra.”

    Depends on what it is. If its important like choosing a yeshiva for the kids or arranging a doctor appointment or discussing what food is for shabbos then yes. but not to stam shmooze.

    #693124

    mosherose
    Member

    “Does it matter? Why is a stranger different (vis-a-vis “al tarbeh…”) than Mrs. Katz, the wife of a fellow who davens in my shul?”

    No there both wrong. You shouldnt be doing eithr.

    #693125

    LAer
    Member

    Woohoo! Mosherose is back! Loving the “frivilus [sic] talk like good morning.”

    #693127

    smartcookie
    Member

    Welcome home Mosherose! How was camp??

    #693128

    456cbs
    Participant

    To: sephardic.chabadnick

    From: a fellow chabadnick (born and raised in a Frum Chabad family)

    Keep strong! You’re on the right path. Hashem will come through for you.

    It’s not only baalei tshuva and non-jewish kids from Jewish fathers, that may be ignored or rejected.

    I have been fighting for my daughter’s rights- mostly because I am divorced- I don’t have much money- my daughter dresses and behaves as she pleases- not always like everyone else, but not wrong.

    Try to find a community and shul with a Rabbi that is accepting, welcoming and helpful. Keep talking to Hashem.

    Good luck!

    #693129

    aries2756
    Participant

    In my Heimish community (not MO), it is perfectly acceptable to say Good Morning or Gut Shabbos to everyone. And that begins with the Rabbonim right down to 3 year olds! But thanks for all the poskim on the CR. I ‘ll take my cues from my Rabbonim who are as chashuv and as Gadol as anyone else’s, and are also considered Daas Torah and have also published seforim, and are also dayanim. Thank you very much!

    #693130

    squeak
    Participant

    Day’yo lavoi min hadin leh’yos k’niddon

    Please translate.

    Dayyo roughly means “It is all you can do to prove X through a kal v’chomer to the same degree as the base statement”.

    It is tied to concept of kal v’chomer (a fortiori). This phrase limits the scope of what can be learned though the kal v’chomer logic.

    Example: Suppose I tell you that I can throw a 10 lb bowling ball 50 yards. You could deduce by kal v’chomer that I certainly can throw a (much lighter) baseball the same distance (50 yards). But you could not use the kal v’chomer to deduce that I can throw the light baseball 60 yards, because of dayyo.

    Whether or not you agree with this limitation or whether it makes sense logically is irrelevant. Dayyo is a concept explicitly stated in the Torah (see Bamidbar 12:14 and Rashi there)

    #693131

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Squeak,

    Thanks for the clarification. As I said, not all of us are talmidei chachamim. Some of us (like me) are just plain stupid.

    Nonetheless, I’m not sure I see how applying this to our topic changes anything.

    The Mishna says (my paraphrase): Don’t talk excessively with a woman. This means your wife, kal v’chomer another woman.

    Applying your principle, the restrictions against a wife cannot be stronger than those regarding another woman — but they can be equal, no?

    The Wolf

    #693132

    yechezkel89
    Member

    there is nothing halachikly wrong w/saying hello to someone of the opposite gender. in fact, it’s quite rude and it’s also a chilul Hashem not to do so.

    #693133

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    YES thats exactly what it means. You talk to yur wife so that yur house can function normally and you raise the kids. Theres no heter for frivilus talk like good morning or talking about books or anything else thats not important.

    Depends on what it is. If its important like choosing a yeshiva for the kids or arranging a doctor appointment or discussing what food is for shabbos then yes. but not to stam shmooze.

    If you want to run your marriage that way, go ahead. But as for me, I will talk to my wife as I please, not based on what you say. And if you want to believe that I am a sinner for wanting to talk to my wife about anything other than what is absolutely necessary, then I will wear that tag with pride.

    The (sinning) Wolf

    #693134

    Max Well
    Member

    It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur.

    #693135

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur.

    How can it be a Chillul HaShem but not an issur? Isn’t making a Chillul HaShem assur in-and-of-itself?

    The Wolf

    #693136

    squeak
    Participant

    Yes, the Mishna implies that the restriction are equal.

    I was preempting the statement that while the Mishna says “Al Tarbeh”, that is only in reference to your wife, but kal v’chomer with regard to other women you shouldn’t talk at all.

    And while your self-deprecating remarks (or attempts at self-effacement, if you can call it that) may be necessary to get some people here to answer you, I find that they only make me uncomfortable. Please don’t use that approach with me.

    #693137

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes, the Mishna implies that the restriction are equal.

    I was preempting the statement that while the Mishna says “Al Tarbeh”, that is only in reference to your wife, but kal v’chomer with regard to other women you shouldn’t talk at all.

    My apologies. Apparently, I misunderstood you on the other page then. Never mind.

    And while your self-deprecating remarks (or attempts at self-effacement, if you can call it that) may be necessary to get some people here to answer you, I find that they only make me uncomfortable. Please don’t use that approach with me.

    My apologies for making you feel uncomfortable. That’s not my intent. I just like to recognize my limitations. Some people like to believe that they are smart, intelligent, cunning, etc. when, in fact, they may be stone-cold stupid. If there’s one thing that I can say positively about myself, it’s that I know my limitations. Nonetheless, I wasn’t trying to make you (or anyone else) feel uncomfortable and I apologize if that’s the way it came out.

    The Wolf

    #693138

    *****It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur.

    How can it be a Chillul HaShem but not an issur? Isn’t making a Chillul HaShem assur in-and-of-itself?

    The Wolf*****

    clearly implied was: “even if not an issur in and of itself”

    #693139

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    clearly implied was: “even if not an issur in and of itself”

    Ah, I misunderstood then. My apologies for the confusion. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #693140

    Sister Bear
    Member

    It doesn’t seem like anyone is having a conversation with someone of the opposite gender if they say Good Morning or Good Shabbos. What is wrong with walking past someone and saying Good Shabbos and continuing to walk? Two words is really the extra that the Mishna was talking about?

    And why is it a Chillul Hashem and rude to say Good Morning or Good Shabbos?

    #693141

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Two words is really the extra that the Mishna was talking about?

    I don’t think so, but what the heck do I know? Apparently, I’m constantly being rude and causing multiple Chillulei HaShem every day. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #693142

    smartcookie
    Member

    The wolf- do you reallty believe that people feel good when you greet them? You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

    #693143

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Smartcookie, I can tell you that where I grew up, yes, it makes people happy. When people moved into our neighborhood and didn’t say “Good Shabbos” it created animosity.

    #693144

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The wolf- do you reallty believe that people feel good when you greet them? You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

    I believe that most people are happier when greeted with a smile, even by a stranger. You, I believe, are in the minority.

    As to whether they are happier when greeted by me, personally, is another question altogether. Of that, I sometimes have grave doubts.

    The Wolf

    #693145

    Max Well
    Member

    SJS: In Monsey?

    #693146

    people crave respect, kvod, recognition, and interest, even in small ways. everyone likes to be greeted and smiled to.

    #693147

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Max well, yes.

    #693148

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

    everyone likes to be greeted and smiled to.

    Well, I guess not *everyone.* 🙂

    The Wolf

    #693149

    You wouldn’t make me happier if I don’t know you.

    I dont believe that.

    #693150

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “people crave respect, kvod, recognition, and interest, even in small ways. everyone likes to be greeted and smiled to.”

    Dale Carnegie writes in his books, many times, that the nicest sounding word to a person is his/her own name. Try it sometimes. The next time you go shopping say good morning to the clerk and see the reaction, then, the next time you go back say good morning joe and see the difference.

    #693151

    s.c – I wish you much Koach to deal with your obstacles. I don’t know you but I want to answer somethings you said. I knew a couple people, also rough, who went through some very, very hard trials. I did find that, with them, it was alot more suffering in their perception of how they were treated than how they were really treated. One would make herself very difficult to be around (semi vulgar language, often putting down Rabbis or others even in front of the kids at the shabbos table)and then complain that the community was cold and unwelcoming to BT’s. Another would reprimand others children harshly but her own son would sometimes get out of line and it went unnoticed. People tried very hard to take these people in but when it became too difficult, the blame was put on the fact that they were BT’s. I am NOT accusing you of any of the above behaviors, I am only suggesting that when we are hurt and insulted by others it is always recommended to see if we are looking at the situation objectively and if we are sure we saw/heard what we think we saw/ heard. Keep your chin up, many of us out there are davening for you!!

    Secondly, why is sitting in front of a computer in forums like this with men and women mixed any different than saying Good Shabbos to a stranger? I personally say hello to any Jew I pass (as do most people in my city) and I think the recipient has the option to ignore you if he/she so chooses.

    #693152

    smartcookie
    Member

    If the recipient ignores-thats rude. I answer back with a nice good shabbos. But I don’t initiate it.

    Wolf, do you live in a small town?

    #693153

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, do you live in a small town?

    A small town of about 2,556,598 people. It’s called Brooklyn. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #693154

    oomis
    Participant

    Shneinu, sitting in front of a computer speaking to faceless people (who may or may not even be the gender we believe them to be), is NOT the same as saying hello to someone in the street. That being said, I will stick with my custom of being makdim kol haadom b’sholom. Far from a chillul Hashem, it creates a sense of ahavas chinam and achdus. And is that not what we need, to make a tikkun olam for the Churban?

    Mosherose, I am so sorry, but you just sound so unyielding sometimes, but most especially with al tabeh sicha inyan. If I remember correctly it was a specific rov who said that and he was rebuked by Beruriah (?) for using too many words with her, given his personal viewpoint on sicha with nashim.

    Your stated hashkafa is not one that is recommended between husbands and wives, I can tell you, or with other Yidden. If you truly believe a man and a woman have nothing substantive to discuss with each other besides the running of the household and kids, they must have the most unfulfilling and boring marriage on the planet. I would never live with such a husband, and neither would most normal women, IMO. Most women do not enjoy being ignored until their husband wants to discuss the new washing machine or whether or not little Shmuley is ready for Yeshivah.

    #693155

    smartcookie
    Member

    So wolf- HOW do you tell good shabbos to everyone?

    I pass 3 people every 3 inches. I would look quite unstable if I would keep turning my head left and right distributing good shabbos greetings.

    #693156

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So wolf- HOW do you tell good shabbos to everyone?

    I pass 3 people every 3 inches. I would look quite unstable if I would keep turning my head left and right distributing good shabbos greetings.

    I guess my neighborhood is less crowded than yours. Not all of those 2,556,598 live in my neighborhood. I think one or two might even live in Boro Park. 🙂

    Also, I don’t say Good Shabbos to *everyone* — there is some discretion involved. For example, if I see a group of people engrossed in conversation, I will usually not interrupt them — that’s rude and defeats the purpose, IMHO.

    The Wolf

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