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  • #693157

    kapusta
    Participant

    So wolf- HOW do you tell good shabbos to everyone?

    I pass 3 people every 3 inches. I would look quite unstable if I would keep turning my head left and right distributing good shabbos greetings.

    I dont go out all the often on Shabbos, but when I do I make it a point to wish everyone (women) a good Shabbos. I think its basic decency and I dont see any reason not to. Plus, all those startled faces make for great entertainment. 😉

    As for the “unstable” part, I think a person who does not wish people a good Shabbos has more votes in the unstable category than one who does. And I think it is downright embarrassing not to do something as simple as that. JMO.

    *kapusta*

    #693158

    msseeker
    Member

    I’m begining to think Mosherose is a plant trying to make “ultra-frum” people (by CR standards) look ridiculous and cruel. The frummest Jews in the world (barring certifiable meshugoyim) don’t believe in or practice such nonsense. And I do know some of the very frummest in the world.

    #693160

    msseeker, you are 100% correct. I know many people who are extremely extremely like yes ULTRA frum and do not follow mosherose’s standards. Just remember, he’s for sure a teenager, extremely idealistic and not all that learned (if he can’t get the mishna “al tarbe sicha im haisha” straight, i’d rather not post it public but everyone knows the basic pshat of that mishna). He is also not married. All of his opinions will change RAPIDLy after marriage! i assure you.

    #693161

    i did see that previously mentioned (sorry if i’m repetitive) that saying gut shabbos to the opposite gender on the street…, please all of you who think you’re being so polite by saying gut shabbos to everyone, its NOT. You are putting the other person in a very very uncomfortable position. I’m not talking about the davakaniks who know very well they shouldn’t be saying gut shabbos, and say a very loud attention seeking … whatever gut shabbos. It happens quite often to me and i hope i don’t come across as rude. i usually don’t make eye contact and nod…

    #693162

    charliehall
    Participant

    “It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur. “

    I took my wife to the most frum shul in my neighborhood one Friday night. She was the only woman on her side of the seven foot opaque mechitzah. And none of the men would even say “Good Shabbos” to her. She has never been back. I don’t blame her. We now attend shuls that are less frum but more heimish.

    #693163

    lavdavka
    Member

    -msseeker

    I am married, and i believe that mosherose is teitching it correct

    but hes a bit out of touch with reality. this that he is saying is probably what it meant at a time and was supposed to mean always. but today things are very different. remember that in the days of the mishna men had many wives and they probably did not talk nearly as much together like today.

    what we have as the family unit did not exist then. men were not with the same wife every night for they had many and were only able to be with one at a time as we see in the story of yaakov and ruvein. they all had different tents. so mosherose is right but hes not up to date with the times when spending time shmoozing about every thing under the sun with one’s wife is absolutely essential and not tar’beh .

    EDITED

    #693165

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You are putting the other person in a very very uncomfortable position.

    If I may say so, I believe you are in the minority on this. I believe that most people like to be greeted, by whomever it is that’s doing the greeting — be it man or woman, Jew or non-Jew, child or adult.

    The Wolf

    #693166

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    this that he is saying is probably what it meant at a time and was supposed to mean always. but today things are very different.

    Heh. Whenever *I* bring up the suggestion that societal changes must be taken into account when determining halacha, I get blasted by some members of these boards. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #693167

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And none of the men would even say “Good Shabbos” to her.

    I would never say “good shabbos” to a woman in shul whom I didn’t know on a personal level, although I often will when passing in the street.

    This is not odd. I say hello to everyone I pass on the street, while I only greet people I know when in the supermarket.

    I suppose if I knew a woman was expecting to be greeted I might throw her a “good shabbos”.

    I think that if your wife was insulted, it is because she does not have an understanding of the societal norms in yeshivish shuls. Even if you disagree with the practices of society, you must realize that you cannot be insulted when people act based on them. (unless they are insulting in their nature; for example a black person in the Jim Crow South.)

    #693169

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what we have as the family unit did not exist then. men were not with the same wife every night for they had many and were only able to be with one at a time as we see in the story of yaakov and ruvein.

    Lav,

    I would be willing to bet that even when allowed, polygyny was the exception, not the rule. Most people probably had no more than one wife at a time.

    The Wolf

    #693170

    squeak
    Participant

    Hmph. I for one, am not feeling very welcome today.

    #693171

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Hmph. I for one, am not feeling very welcome today.

    Welcome to the CR, squeak. 🙂

    The (welcoming wagon) Wolf

    #693172

    says who
    Member

    WolfishMusings said:

    “If I may say so, I believe you are in the minority on this. I believe that most people like to be greeted, by whomever it is that’s doing the greeting — be it man or woman, Jew or non-Jew, child or adult.”

    In chassidishe circles it’s the majority that would feel uncomfortable. Well, you can say that chassididhe people are a minority.

    #693173

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    In MO areas, its rude and makes people uncomfortable to be ignored. So if you think people should be respectful to chassidim, people should be respectful to MO. It *should* go both ways.

    #693174

    says who
    Member

    Please don’t excpect a chassidishe man to say good shabbos to a MO woman on the street or in Shul. If you can’t except that, and this will make you be unrespectful to chassidim, then you need to mature. I don’t consider myself being rude by not greeting women. I respect evryone and I never complained that MO are not respectful to chassidim.

    #693175

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Then don’t expect people in a MO community to stop saying good shabbos to people on the street. Its disrespectful to come to a community and expect them to adhere to your preference.

    #693176

    LAVDAVKA check out that mishna again. The way we explain it according to pshat… not they won’t teach you that in high school, but double check that.

    #693177

    oomis
    Participant

    “It is rude and a chillul Hashem to greet the opposite gender, even if not an issur. “

    Did you actually read what you wrote? If it is not assur, then by what right do you call it a chillul Hashem?

    #693178

    oomis
    Participant

    Please don’t excpect a chassidishe man to say good shabbos to a MO woman on the street or in Shul.”

    It is rare for a MO woman to say GS to a chassid. Only someone who really does not understand the “etiquette” of this would say anything at all spontaneously to a chassid. But being a bulvan is being a bulvan. If someone greets you, you can respond quietly, briefly, and in a low voice. Otherwise, it is mevayeish someone in public, and THAT is b’feirush a Lav D’Oraisah, whereas saying Good Shabbos to an opposite gendered person is NOT, NOT, NOT. And if you believe it is, show me the exact makor that is accepted by all frum Jews, that specifies that saying Good Shabbos is assur.

    #693179

    reminds me of when someone gave me a hug in Shul. i moved back and gently explained he probably didnt know that the Halachah to not kiss your children in Shul applies to adults as well and other forms of embrace such as hugging.

    a few minutes later i asked a Tzaddik, Talmid Chochom who was also present, about this, just to be sure i did the right thing. he said the Halachah is as i understood it, but if someone hugs you in Shul, hug him back and dont say anything about it.

    #693180

    says who
    Member

    SJSinNYC

    I never said that. Maybe someone else in the CR.

    #693181

    oomis
    Participant

    “Then don’t expect people in a MO community to stop saying good shabbos to people on the street. Its disrespectful to come to a community and expect them to adhere to your preference”

    Extremely well said! Someone was visiting in my shul and I sit in a downstairs ezras nashim behind and separated from the men’s section, where we can pull aside the mechitzah curtains during the Rov’s drasha(they overlay a wooden mechitzah, that has an intricate design that by itself prevents men from easily seeing women, the curtains are an additional measure). I pulled aside the curtains as the Rov began to speak (I hear better that way, don’t ask me why), and she immediately pulled them back closed and hissed, “We don’t do things like that.” I said nothing at the time, but after the davening, I said good shabbos to her and then said, “I understand that you don’t do things like that in your neighborhood, but you are in (my neighborhood)… now, and we do things a little differently here, with the Rov’s haskamah. ” To her credit, she apologized for her presumptuousness.

    #693182

    says who
    Member

    I only said that chassidishe people feel uncomfortable when greeted by opposit gender. Everything else that SJSinNYC and OOmis assume that I think, Please don’t make up things so I won’t have a need to respond, going back and forth for nothing.

    #693183

    lavdavka
    Member

    Rav Wolfmussings said:

    Heh. Whenever *I* bring up the suggestion that societal changes must be taken into account when determining halacha, I get blasted by some members of these boards. 🙂

    __________________

    Wolf said:

    I would be willing to bet that even when allowed, polygyny was the exception, not the rule. Most people probably had no more than one wife at a time.

    ___________________

    You must remember that there is a mitzvah to have children and many people probably had many wives to have many children.

    I would be interested to know which of us is historically correct about this if anyone has a source please supply it.

    thank you in advance

    #693185

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You must remember that there is a mitzvah to have children and many people probably had many wives to have many children.

    Firstly, the average number of wives still had to be pretty close to one. After all, there are only a finite number of women to go around. Every additional wife a person took probably meant that someone else wasn’t going to get married. (Unless, of course, you’re going to posit that there were many times more women than men.)

    In addition, you must remember that if a man had more than one wife, he had to support them and their children. I would be willing to bet that only the wealthy could have more than one wife at a time.

    Here’s a hint: how many tana’im or amoraim can you think of in the Mishna/Gemara that are mentioned as having more than one wife at a time? Very few, if any.

    The Wolf

    #693186

    lavdavka
    Member

    Here’s a hint: how many tana’im or amoraim can you think of in the Mishna/Gemara that are mentioned as having more than one wife at a time? Very few, if any.

    _________________________

    I will not claim to be answering your whole question but the Torah/Nevi’m only mention people that were relevant to the story as we know the Medrashim say that Yaakov had many more children

    #693187

    smartcookie
    Member

    Wolf, I have a question.

    When I walk down the streets I meet many litvish, or MO people and nobody says gut shabbos to me. How come? I thought you said it was rude?

    Just wondering if it’s really as proper and accepted as you make it sound.

    #693188

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Mods,

    If you’re going to edit my posts, as mark them as such.

    Rav Wolfmussings said:

    Please do not call me “rav” or “rabbi” or anything of the sort. I am not a rav or a rabbi and I feel that granting the title on one who has not earned it demeans and cheapens it.

    The Wolf

    #693189

    oomis
    Participant

    smartcookie, if my husband or I would see you coming down our street WE would wish you a good Shabbos.

    #693190

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When I walk down the streets I meet many litvish, or MO people and nobody says gut shabbos to me. How come? I thought you said it was rude?

    It’s my opinion. There is no “universal” standard of rudeness.

    The Wolf

    #693191

    oomis
    Participant

    “Everything else that SJSinNYC and OOmis assume that I think, Please don’t make up things so I won’t have a need to respond, going back and forth for nothing.”

    I assume nothing, and I don’t think I made up anything about you, but if I did, I am sorry.

    #693192

    lavdavka
    Member

    Please do not call me “rav” or “rabbi” or anything of the sort. I am not a rav or a rabbi and I feel that granting the title on one who has not earned it demeans and cheapens it.

    ______________

    Well i write it because im impressed with you even though i NEVER agree with you, You think like a Gemara kup and im impresed.

    #693193

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Well i write it because im impressed with you even though i NEVER agree with you, You think like a Gemara kup and im impresed.

    Well, I thank you for the kind words, but it really changes nothing. I am still not a rav, rabbi or anything else in that department. Please save the honorific for one who has actually earned it.

    The Wolf

    #693194

    “I only said that chassidishe people feel uncomfortable when greeted by opposit gender.”

    says who –

    NOT true. I wrote previously and there are many like me who get uncomfortable when greeted by the opposite gender and i am NOT chassidish!

    #693195

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yes. girls have cooties. get away from meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    #693196

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    yes. girls have cooties. get away from meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    Running joke in our family — the American Girl doll store on Fifth Avenue is known as “Cootie Central.”

    The Wolf

    #693197

    says who
    Member

    sof davar hakol nishma

    I didn’t say Only chassidishe people, you can read again my post.

    #693198

    Popa bar abba “yes. girls have cooties. get away from meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

    i’m sorry but what’s “cooties”

    #693199

    bpt
    Participant

    I’m not sure how we got from “shul” to “American Girl dolls”, but this old joke popped into mind this morning, and since it shul related, I’ll post it here:

    Visitor to shul memeber: Excuse me, what time is it?

    Shul memeber: I’m not telling you

    Visitor: Why not?

    Shul member: becuase next thing I know, you’ll be asking me if I can direct you to an available seat. Then, you’ll strike up a conversation with me after davening (as we have formed a “bond”), then, you’ll ask if I have children who are in the parsha (which I do) and the next thing I know, you’ll want to be meshadech with me. AND I DONT WANT YOU AS A MECHUTAN!

    Visitor: Why on earth would you not want me as a mechutan?

    Shul member: You’re nothing but a poor schnorrer.. you don’t even own a watch!

    #693200

    blinky
    Participant

    “Shul member: becuase next thing I know, you’ll be asking me if I can direct you to an available seat. Then, you’ll strike up a conversation with me after davening (as we have formed a “bond”), then, you’ll ask if I have children who are in the parsha (which I do) and the next thing I know, you’ll want to be meshadech with me. AND I DONT WANT YOU AS A MECHUTAN!”

    BP totty- its not even a joke- Its so true thats how conversations really go!!!

    But it was a good laugh nyway:)

    #693201

    fabie
    Member

    Any more creative opinions?

    #693202

    oomis
    Participant

    “i’m sorry but what’s “cooties”

    It’s the equivalent of having lice or some disgusting rash, or anything really nasty that someone could catch from another person (I don’t think there actually IS something called cooties IRL, or it is just a nickname for the things I mentioned).

    #693203

    Aura
    Participant

    Dear Reb X

    Last shabbos I had the pleasure of being invited to your house by your wonderful wife for Shabbos dinner. Thank you ever so much for the delicious food and heilige atmosphere. However, my two (girl) friends and I were uncomfortable when neither you nor your sons made any attempt to greet us when we arrived nor made any contact with us throughout the meal. You did not say goodbye to us even though we made a point of saying thank you as we were leaving. In fact it felt like we were being deliberately ignored the entire evening. It made us feel unwelcome and and uncomfortable. I know that you do not engage in frivolous conversation with females or make eye contact with women outside of your family, however, a tiny acknowledgement of our existence would have made us feel accepted and appreciated as your guests. Kol tuv Aura

    #693204

    Helpful
    Member

    You ought to respect his feelings and sensibilities regarding the seperation of genders.

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