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I have a friend who says using the internet is assur. However, she sometimes asks me to download shiurim or medical information. I usually do it, but I always wonder about it.
If using the internet is assur, how can she ask me to do this for her?
She probably feels that once she goes on then she wont be able to get off. So rather than her giving in to her Y”H, she asks you to do her a favor and you readily agree. As long as you are not doing anything wrong then dont worry about it. It could be she had a problem with the internet and is just scared, who knows.
I have a personal rule. The only time I ask someone to do something for me that I won’t do myself is when I can’t do it for physical or skill-related reasons. I would otherwise never ask someone to do something that I would not be willing to do myself.
The Wolf
Why is it any different then asking a yid to drive on shabbos to pick something up for you-at least according to her view that internet is assur?
Unless it was an emergency, I wouldn’t do it.
was she given a psak by a Rav, that she has a relationship with, that it is assur for anyone to use the internet, under all circumstances? did the Rav tell her that it is assur for all Yidden even to listen to Shiurim and to obtain needed medical information?
i think the answer to your question is dependent on the above.
“If using the internet is assur, how can she ask me to do this for her?”
she should not ask you to do it, that being said if there is so many good things online like torah lessons etc. maybe she should rethink her standing on it
easy mitzvah. no problem doing it.
No one should ask you to do something that is assur across the board. The question is degrees of assering. For HER it may be assur, based on her rov or hashkafa. Period. However, those who hold it is not assur, do so specifically BECAUSE of the good things such as shiurim that can be found on the Internet. So while she might not be allowed to use it because she has a p’sak not to, it might be ok for her to ask someone else to, for a good purpose. Her issur is not necessarily someone else’s. And before anyone thinks of arguing about the issur of using the internet, please note – we are all here on-line reading this. If you truly hold that it is assur, buh bye.
There’s a famous story of 2 rabbonim who paskened differently on the status of a chicken.
Both were unknowingly served the same chicken.
Hashem saw to it that the rav who felt it was treif was unable to eat it; the chicken just kept slipping off his utensil.
The other rav had no problem.
“elu v’elu”
and “shivim panim la’Torah”
Torah lo bashamayim hee, & it depends how your rav holds
There’s no contradiction. Most rabbonim who aser internet allow it for an individual who needs it. Take, for example, the Lakewood model. The yeshivos in Lakewood do not accept talmidim from homes with internet, unless they have a heter from their rov.
For someone who has it because needs it to utilize it on behalf of someone who does not have it is no problem.
I have done favors for people who don’t have internet, such as helping them sign up for discount programs, and helping with email (although I haven’t been asked except for things which are important.)
I applaud those who don’t have it, and if I can help them keep it that way, I’m glad to do so.
to tell you the truth haifagirl i dont think i would do it for her.
it’s like if someone is against the eruv in your neighborhood and he thinks it is assur to carry and he asks you to carry something for him would you do it? I wouldn’t because i’m not his “shabbos goy”!
this is sort of the same situation.
Based on the content of what she is asking for, why not?
If she would ask for other things then I would say no.
I have a family member who feels that way about the internet and is always asking to check and research things for him. I told him that if it is indeed assur, I dont want to get a bigger aveirah for using it on his behalf.
I think this is very different than two rabbonim with opposite opinions on the kashrus of a chicken or eiruv. In the case, the same rov could tell one individual not to get internet and allow another to get it.
I heard a similar story or possibly a different version of that story there was a shaila whether over stuffing fowl to fatten them caused a rupture in the esophagus rendering it a treifa. Both rabbonim agreed to put it to the test. They each had 10 fowl over fed for several months and then shechted them and had the esophagus submerged in water to see if bubbles come up indicating that there was a hole. By the posek who assurd it all 10 bubbled and by the meikel all 10 were good, showing that a tzaddik’s psak effects nature.
Getting back on topic, let your friend go back to that same rav that told her that internet is assur and ask if it’s muttar for someone else to do it for her, and if yes, why?
maybe she doesnt want it in her house but does not think that there is something wrong for you to get her something online that she needs. sometimes doctors tell you to do soemthing online and you just have to so that is where you come in handy. I am sure that if you told her that you dont want to have internet access anymore and cant do anything for her anymore she would not say “pls keep it for my sake I need it”
DY,
That’s exactly my point.
It’s not unilateral.
i’ve been at a kiddush where i was asked by a girl if i open a soda bottle on shabbos, could i open it for her. i was also disturbed by this, . but it was explained to me that there are rabbonim who matir this,and those who assir it, . therefore if your Rav is Mattir then there is no problem to do it for someone else because you are allowed and no one is asking you to do something assur. The same holds for lots of other issues. the best thing is to follow your own rav and then you will not go wrong.
I just heard a shiur regarding this.
Simply, there is a concept in Halacha called Shaas HaDechak, and we allow certain things for “B’Dieved”. That does not allow someone else who does not have the B’Dieved to go ahead and use the heter!
Similarly, if you hold opening a bottle cap on shabbos is a melacha, if someone else opens it, that is as far as you are concerned that is Melecha. Whether you can use it or not depends if you define the doer as a shoggeg or Maizid, ask your LOR (See SA OHC 318).
So for the OP, the internet is not really “assur”, but THEY just can’t use it (peer pressue, shidduchim stigma, etc., or a gezairah made by their rov for his community). That is not to say the benefit from it is disallowed (or there would be many more things they could not do, like talk on their “kosher phone”, etc.
Similarly, if you hold opening a bottle cap on shabbos is a melacha, if someone else opens it, that is as far as you are concerned that is Melecha. Whether you can use it or not depends if you define the doer as a shoggeg or Maizid
Given that the classic two examples of Shogeg (WRT Shabbos) are:
1. The person didn’t know it was Shabbos (i.e. they thought it was Friday)
2. The person thought the activity was permitted on Shabbos
… how can you say that the doer is anything BUT a shogeg, when they clearly fall into the second category.
The Wolf
Its like asking being asked to fly an airplane(if you could) by someone who only has a driver’s license.
They know you can handle it, and they can’t.
Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. The only thing I would add is, does parent (or spouse) know and are they ok with it. If so, go right ahead. If not, that’s asking for huge trouble.
personally i think internet IS assur without some sort of filter. and this applies to EVERYONE-kids and adults alike. but with a good filtering sstem you can block out the bad sites and use internet without the shmutz….
It is not AT ALL like asking someone to fly an airplane. She has made it clear that the internet is ASUR. If you look at it like chometz, which is not only asur on pesach but you can’t even derive benefit from it on pesach, then she shouldn’t be asking her friend to do it so she can derive benefit from something she clearly wouldn’t do. Even if you say that she can get benefit from it (unlike chometz) it is still the same thing – she is asking her friend to do something she feels is wrong.
I would say that the best example for this is asking a goy to do something on shabbos. Even though there is no problem for them to do anything, you still can’t tell them to put on the lights for you. The bottom line here is that if it is wrong for you to do it then it is wrong for you to make someone else do it for you.
In the case of opening a soda bottle on shabbos, you are not allowed to do it directly for a friend who holds you are not allowed to. You can only do it if you yourself will take some. For that reason for example by the bp eruv, if you don’t hold of it , you may not ask s/o who does to carry for you since they are doing it directly for you. Why would this be any different?
If I remember correctly, you can only open a soda bottle for someone else if you yourself will also benefit – for example, you’re also going to take some soda. I’m not clear on it, but I seem to recall that if you’re doing it completely for the other person, it’s a problem.
I think you are posing the question to the wrong person (people). It is a good question but you should be posing it to your friend.
“if you said the internet is assur, how could you ask me to get these things off the internet for you? Then aren’t you asking me to do an aveira according to your thinking? If its assur for you wouldn’t it be assur for me? In that case if you ask me to do this, you are asking me to be over your Rav’s psak and thereby asking me to do an aveira? Should one friend ask another to do that then? I am confused.”
I don’t allow my children to carry for others on Shabbos, even though I allow them to use the eruv.
Don’t ask me to open a bottle of soda for you on Shabbos, even though I would do it for myself. I’m not your Shabbos goy.
But,
Haifagirl: If you don’t want to look up things up online for your friend, because she believes the internet is treif, send her to me. I’ll gladly do it for her. Kol Hakovod to anyone who doesn’t use the internet at all.
If someone is afraid to go into a certain store because of the kind of people who work there, and they know someone who goes in all the time, there would be nothing wrong with her asking that person to buy something for her since he goes there all the time anyway.
Avraham Schwartzbaum writes in The Bamboo Cradle that he asked a rabbi if it’s ok to keep a kosher home, but outside the home not keep kosher. The Rabbi answered, what he answers to people who ask this question, is that their dishes will go to heaven. If I use the net at work and not at home, because the net in my office is in an open place as opposed to my home, is that the same thing? Common sense should tell you, it is not.
Let’s not compare apples and oranges.
i agree with DY
The way I see it, two basic opinions have been expressed here:
a) Since she holds it’s asur, it’ wrong for her to ask you to do it
b) Not everyone has the same rov or the same situation, so while for her it may indeed be asur, for you it’s not, so there’s no reason not to download shiurim for her.
This leaves you with two options:
1) Refuse to do it, on the grounds that she’s a hypocrite, and has no right to ask you to do something which is beneath her to do.
You risk losing or at least damaging a friendship, but who needs a friend who treats you like her Shabbos goy!
2) Happily do her this chessed, either because you accept opinion (b), or, even if you personally agree with opinion (a), out of the understanding that she may look at things from the perspective of opinion (b), and in fact not look down at you, but rather see things in a more open-minded manner than that; she has her p’sak, but you have yours and are doing nothing wrong by using the internet.
You will be able to help her obtain valuable Torah as well as important medical information, and undoubtedly, through chessed, increase your friendship.
The choice is yours.
Wolf: Since the doer knows the Machmir Shitta, and chooses not to follow it, I can see a Rov saying it is a Maizid, since the doer should have known better.
Working on it:
Internet is different because the actual internet is not an issur, but there may be a gezairah by her community not to use it (similar to TV, to a large extent). Chometz on Pesach is actually assur.
The fact that she thinks that internet is “assur” just speaks to the method of teaching (Don’t touch the tree, because if you do, you will die!!!) vs. the actual dinim involved.
Wolf: Since the doer knows the Machmir Shitta, and chooses not to follow it, I can see a Rov saying it is a Maizid, since the doer should have known better.
Holding a more lenient opinion = being mechalel Shabbos B’Mayzid?! That’s quite a stretch there.
Do you hold of every machmir opinion in the world? If not, are you transgressing aveiros b’mayzid?
The Wolf
Holding a more lenient opinion = being mechalel Shabbos B’Mayzid?! That’s quite a stretch there.
Do you hold of every machmir opinion in the world? If not, are you transgressing aveiros b’mayzid?
The Wolf
Of course not. But I could see someone’s Rov saying “If you don’t follow my shitta, you are being Mechalel Shabbos B’Maizid!!”.
You can’t see it?
But I could see someone’s Rov saying “If you don’t follow my shitta, you are being Mechalel Shabbos B’Maizid!!”.
You can’t see it?
Yes, I can see it. But that’s a very narrow-minded approach. There ARE legitimate shittos l’kula. If people don’t recognize that and insist on “my way or the highway” (which is what you are insisting on if you’re going to call someone a mechalel shabbos b’mayzid with all that that entails), then we have a very sorry situation indeed.
The Wolf
Gavra:
That was my point. If it is not allowed in her community then it is not allowed by proxy either.
If you hold opening bottles is osur, you may not ask others to do it. If they did it (because they hold it’s mutar), you can use the opened bottle.
Gavra, I totally can’t see it — IT IS SIMPLY WRONG AND UNTRUE. DO NOT TAKE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR ABOUT THE BORO PARK EIRUV AT IT’S FACE VALUE!!!
According to this logic, anybody who follows a lenient opinion in a machlokes is a rosha according to the machmirim and can be treated as such. Shomu Shamaim al zos…!!!
mdd:
I was not refering to any specific example, and I know nothing about the Boro Park Eruv.
I believe Wolf is correct on this, that it could happen, and it is a “very narrow-minded approach”. The OP and goldenkint should have their “other parties” check it out with their Rov before acting.
Wolf and GAW,
When I lived in Brooklyn, my BIL and sister’s Rabbi told them they were not allowed to invite guests who used the eruv (even if their Rabbi told them it was mutar). It didn’t affect me because I was in the same building as my sister and we had an eruv chatzeros anyway, but my other sister lived across the street and was affected.
So yes, it does happen.
When I lived in Brooklyn, my BIL and sister’s Rabbi told them they were not allowed to invite guests who used the eruv (even if their Rabbi told them it was mutar).
Because there are legitimate shittos regarding the eruv in Brooklyn (specifically) which hold that it is not a legitimate shitah to be matir it.
DY,
If it were that they should ask guests who use the eruv not to carry when coming to them it would be a different story.
If this had affected me, I would have been super upset and it probably would have destroyed my relationship with my sister. As it was, I felt terrible for my other sister.
But then again, that’s exactly what Wolf and GAW were discussing.
SJS,
The rabbi told them not to invite guests who would not be carrying because of that visit, simply because on other occasions they carry in the eruv?
Yes DY.
I’m also curious by what right one Rav feels he has the right to pre-empt another Rav’s ruling.
The Wolf
SJS,
That makes no sense to me. One is allowed to invite a full fledged mechallel Shabbos to a meal (unless you’re like the guy from “Friday night at the Hockers” 🙂 ), so this would certainly be mutar.
I have a feeling there’s something missing from the story.
What would make sense is if the rabbi who holds it’s asur to carry in that neighborhood forbids you to invite someone who will carry something to your house because of “Lifnei Iver”. This would not be “pre-empting” another rav’s ruling (to address Wolf’s point) because it addresses his own follower.
DY,
I know the entire story. That was it. My sister was not supposed to invite our other sister because she uses the eruv, whether or not she would carry to come.
I guess theoretically if she showed up before Shabbos, she could come for Friday night dinner.
The Rabbi felt there was absolutely no way to allow the Brooklyn Eruv so he forbid inviting people who did use it.
I know the entire story. That was it. My sister was not supposed to invite our other sister because she uses the eruv, whether or not she would carry to come.
I guess theoretically if she showed up before Shabbos, she could come for Friday night dinner.
Those two statements are inconsistent.
No not really.
She couldn’t come visit on Shabbos. If she were already there, it may be different.
She couldn’t come Shabbos morning just to say hello. She couldn’t come Shabbos afternoon to play with her nieces. She couldn’t come over to see if my sister wanted to go for a walk at any point on Shabbos.
But yes, if she were there before Shabbos, my sister wouldn’t have to kick her out.
If she couldn’t come despite the fact that she would not carry, that would mean that the rabbi felt she couldn’t come because she’s either a rashanta or a bad influence. It then wouldn’t make a difference if she came before Shabbos, on Shabbos, or on Tuesday.
The rabbi must have felt that she would carry something.
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