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I’m sure I’m not the first to mention this, but that article about Rabbi Cytron-Walker not thanking Hashem made me sick to my stomach. What a Chilul Hashem. He was absolutely heroic in a crisis situation, and YWN uses this as an opportunity to publicly criticise him for not using the words that they wanted him to use? Besides for how bad this makes us look, don’t you realize how disgusting this was? What exactly is the point anyways? Are we that upset when someone non-Orthodox does something good that we need to make sure there is some flaw so we can retain our self centered feelings of piety? Are we that insecure? And we need to portray this to the world? Uch. This made me sick.
And for the record, it has been reported that in his speeches, the rabbi praised the congregants who were held captive with him, paying tribute to their bravery and positivity throughout their entire ordeal. He said: “We are not saying the mourners Kaddish this evening thank God, thank God it could have been so much worse.” So, not only was this article a horrible statement in general, it was also ridiculously poor journalism and makes us look like liars too! Unless we need to put out an article criticizing him for saying thank God twice. I mean atheism and polytheisim? How much better can it get? If we’re going to take all the other Jews down, let’s go scorched earth!
Since the moderator allowed the thread, I’m somewhat hopeful that he/she/they will allow my response.
YWN is an aggregate news source. That means that they don’t employ journalists to document stories. They find content from sources that they feel are of interest to their readership and repost them on their site. I’m oversimplifying it, but my point is that YWN is directly responsible for the editorial content of their site, not necessarily for factual misrepresentations contained in outside reporting.
But a legitimate criticism of YWN, which may be what the OP was alluding to, is that YWN engages in editorializing without stating that they are presenting an opinion or their interpretation of a piece of reporting. For example, it was never reported that the Rabbi chose not to mention G-d in his statement. It was entirely possible that he donned a tallis and recited a complete Hallel, and the reporter didn’t think it was relevant enough to his wider audience to include it in his article. YWN chose to interpret that article as reflecting poorly on Reform Jews by attaching a headline to the story that didn’t reflect the facts of the story.
Good luck mod, I don’t envy you. Even if you discard my entire post, you’ll still have to wash your eyes out with soap.It ain’t about luck. I definitely didn’t approve it and will have no qualms about deleting.
He did mention thanking for prayer alluding to thanking G-d who listened to the prayer.
The article did not bother me and actually touched upon a point I feel strongly abouit. I think we in the Orthodox world have to be more vocal about the fact that unaffiliated American Jews or those who are Reform (and probably Conservative, too) are not actually Jewish. We need to treat them and consider them non-Jews – unless there is evidence to the contrary.
The fact is, most Americans who consider themselves Jewish (but are not Orthodox) are not the child of a Jewish mother. They may have a Jewish relative or they may have a relative who converted into Judaism under a non-orthodox “conversion” but that is about it.
And long gone are the days that non-orthodox Jews had something, anything, Jewish about them. A majority do not believe in God (and that goes for their rabbis, too). They don’t care about kosher, pesach, nothing. The last vestige of Judaism they held on to was Israel but that is not the case any more, either.
So to recap, they were not born Jewish, they do not believe in Judaism (or any religion for that matter) and have no connection to Israel. In what way are they Jewish? The answer is, they are not.
So thankfully intermarriage is diluting these people – more and more every year – but the time has come to stop looking at them as Jews, at all.
Now, I do not hate them in any way. I am delighted the rabbi and his congregation were saved. Unlike R’ Avigdor Miller who says he hated reformed, I do not. But I do not hate people just because they are not Jewish. They are not Jewish. Full stop.
God willing, if more Jews take this approach, we can stop hearing about “Jews for [insert liberal/anti-Torah phrase here]”, women of the wall, etc. We can stop hearing about these goyim masquerading as Jews and supporting all sorts of anti-Jewish and anti-religion causes.
I wish them nothing but the best, as goyim. We do not need them and do not want them. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out.
besalel, well said and I agree. I do however have hatred for them because they talk in the name of Judaism. We should not look as them as Jews but they pass themselves off as Jews and drape themselves in the mantle of Judaism that they don’t even believe in. In Rabbi Avigdor Millers times those reshuim were actual Jews and he hated them for desecrating Hashem’s name and causing millions of Jews to assimilate with the gentiles. Today most of these Reform so-called Jews are not even Jewish but I hate them for passing themselves off as Jews and promoting the worst kinds of sins while claiming to practice Judaism.
The problem is that they don’t know that we follow the mother and therefore think they are Jewish. BTW to understand why we follow the mother, I think, by creating something knew like a Jew, we go after the mother as yesh eim lamikro, but once determined Jewish, we follow the father, binyan av as a kohen, levi or yisrael.
Besalel and Philosopher – Thank you thank you thank you!
This is exactly what I have been begging Joseph and Avirah for forEVER! A calm, respectfully written explanation about what is wrong, why we cannot accept or approve without appeasing or mincing words. I KNEW it could be done, thank you for doing it.One more point to add to the above, how sad that this perverted view of Shabbos services gets blasted across the world. Perhaps its a lesson we can take upon ourselves to make shabbos a day mei-ein olam habo, instead of just a break in our work week perhaps
Syag, I agree almost in full with Besalel. The only exception I take to his above comment is his disagreement with HaGaon HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l. Frankly, I can’t even contemplate how anyone could take Besalel’s position over Rav Miller zt’l.
Well. That sure sailed right over your head. Anyone willing to help me out?
Wow! Just logged on and saw your beautiful post, Syag. Thank you. And will try to take your lesson…
I’ve not been following the backlash of the story, just heard clips of this “Rabbi”‘s speach. What struck or stuck me is the he for heaven sake’s is a proclaimed “Rabbi”. And the world looks at him as such. He should know better. Give Heaven some due respect. Just some. If it had occurred in a bais avodah zara, you bet your boots they’d been praising osa ha’ish over and over. You’d hear their ministers and “mispalelim” over and over, in all their broadcasts and interviews, mention oso ha’ish. Because that’s what a galach does. Shouldn’t even a reform Jew who professes to be called “Jew” know and love HaShem just a tiny teeny bit enough to mention His Name?! It’s not YW, any Jew should be appalled at this chillul HaShem. Baruch HaShem someone in YW chose to stick up for HaShem’s honor.
Also, reform clergy should really not be referred to as rabbi; that term has a definition, just as a doctor.
Syag…so claiming that most reform and conservative jews are not newish and therefore we don’t really care what they do/say (which is the upshot of besalel’s post) is calm, respectful and not mincing words? I don’t understand you very well. If you want people to write dispassionate, academic posts about the difference between orthodoxy and its deviants…rachmana liba bai. If you want criticism to be with understanding and sensitivity – ell i agree that’s what works but there’s a time and place for “hakeh es shinov” too, and i think an anonymous online forum is a good place for it.
The claim is also untrue. Many jews in the reform and conservative movement are not halachikally Jewish, but the majority are. It will be another few decades before that changes. That’s especially true in conservative circles, where there are established JTS/solomon shechter families that are, lehavdil, similar to “chaim Berlin families”. For many years the aforementioned groups have expressed animosity towards Orthodoxy, claiming that because we regard their beliefs as non-jewish, that we also do not consider them jews either. Now they may not have the din of a yisroel regarding bishul, etc…but they are Jewish and it discourages newcomers to portray anything to the contrary.
Also, it should bother us if goyim masquerade as jews either way, because it’s a massive chilul Hashem.
At the very least, the guy could have said: b’h there were only four people at the minyan!
I don’t know specific statistics of who is or is not Jewish in each temple, but there are currently millions of Jews either affiliated with reform or not affiliated who don’t know much and are being lost, and all most people here seem to worry is how they affect “us” … I understand such feelings during the time of tzoros like when reform or communists were attacking us, but not nowadays.
When isro said Baruch Hashem, it was an embarrassment for the Jews.. so even then nonjews were faster at acknowledging Him. Jews tend to complain first.
Avira, why do you think a majority of Reform members are Jewish?
Ironically, the head “rabbi” of the Central Synagogue in Manhattan in a gentile.
Thank you Froggie
Ujm, according to the 2013 pew study on American jewry, 10- 19% of reform Jews (the variation is due to a difference between those who identify with judaism as their religion vs their culture) say that their mother is not Jewish.
Conversions aren’t that common, with the JTA claiming that the reform HUC has logged 1000 participants in conversion classes in the year 2013 – there are 8 million jews in America, so this is a tiny percentage. Conservative conversion is even less common.
When we eliminate the “did the mother convert” element, (which obviously needs to be inspected before recognizing someone as Jewish), we’re left with 80% of reform jews who are most likely halachikally Jewish. If we say that of those 80%, the mothers themselves were the product of perhaps a jewish father and non jewish mother, we’d fall back on intermarriage statistics from 30ish years ago(a generation) which was only 15% across the board, higher among reform but not by much, according to the north American jewish data bank (1982-87).
Worst case scenario would be that 65% of reform jews are halachikally Jewish.
Avira, their current intermarriage rate is close to 80%. The younger generations are much less likely to be Jewish than the older generations. Even 30ish years ago their intermarriage rate was considerably higher than what you’re basing your math on.
Additionally, they’ve been performing false conversions for well over 100 years already. I do believe they perform such “conversions” at a much larger figure than you’re counting. 1,000 in 2013 sounds like HUC alone, not counting the far greater numbers by individual Reform clergymen across the country.
The 20% reporting to Pew a non-Jewish mother would only count those surveyed that are aware their mother is a gentile and willing to say so. Most are unaware.
“The fact is, most Americans who consider themselves Jewish (but are not Orthodox) are not the child of a Jewish mother.”
besalel, I challenge you to prove this by citing a reliable and reputable source. Quoting a Rav who said or wrote it is not reputable.
takah: Do you have evidence that most Reform (and to a slightly lesser degree Conservative) members *are* Jewish?
Certainly, you’ll admit that they conduct false conversions, count patrilineal descent (with no Jewish mother) as being “Jewish”, and the non-Orthodox have a close to 80% intermarriage rate. And these factors have been the case for many decades to centuries (depending on which factor we’re discussing.)
Pew 2021: 47% of currently married non-O Jews are intermarried, with 60% of those who married after 2010 and 18% of those before 1980. So, for those who are 40 y.o. numbers are like Avira says or higher.
other findings:
First intermarriage is quickly followed by 2nd: among those who have one Jewish parent, 80% have non-Jewish spouse.
40% Of R- have some “in common” to O-. 76% of C-s. No branch 24%/
50% O- feels some in common with R-, 63% to C-. So, it is about mutual.
Interestingly, in each group there are 7-9% of those who do not feel in common with their own group.Among 65+ 44% are R, 25% C, 22% none, 3% O
Among 18-29, 29% are R, 8% are C, 41% are none, 17% are OThis past Shabbos, I made a kiddush and siyum in my shul in memory of my mother for her yahrtzeit, which is this week.
I spoke about my mother for a bit after the siyum. I mentioned the difficult life she had, the physical challenges she faced throughout her years and how she didn’t let anything get in the way of her raising her children to be shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos.
But you know what I didn’t think to do? I didn’t thank HKBH for giving me a mother like that. I guess I’m no better than Rabbi Cytron-Walker.
The Wolf
Wolf: He is Mr. Please don’t improperly use a title for him.
I heard that we start shmonei esrai by saying, Hashem open up my mouth to be able to utter your praises. Then, all we do is to ask for our needs. Where is the praise? The fact that we turn to Hashem to ask only from Him to fulfil or wishes is the praise. Wolf, so it is self understood that if you praised your mother is because of she being your mother and her abilities to raise you to be shomrei Torah umitzvos came from Hashem.
Wolf: He is Mr. Please don’t improperly use a title for him.
That was your sole or main takeaway from my post?
The Wolf
Wolf; you made a kiddush, which is for Hashem. You made a siyum (mazel tov!) on Hashem’s Torah.
You didn’t survive an ordeal and not mention the One who saved you. There’s a big difference.
Reb E said it a lot better than me
“That was your sole or main takeaway from my post?”
Wolf: That was my sole objection.
I thank Hashem daily during davening with LOVE for giving me strength and freedom and many other things in life that come directly from Hashem.
Reminds me of a true story i heard from a friend tell over to me many years ago:
I was once approached by 3 people-at 3 different occasions-with the same question, Each person asked me, how he can learn to stop taking things for granted & instead appreciate them? I then replied to each one with a different answer. The first person that approached me was in a shul, before starting Shachris. I told him, most lessons a person learns in life take weeks & months to learn but this lesson takes only one hour to learn. I then opened up a siddur to birchas Hashachar. & showed him boruch… pokeach Ivrim (blessed be Hashem for giving sight to the blind) & told him why don’t you close your eyes for one hour, just one hour & then open it up to, the world to color & beauty etc… you will not know how to thank Hashem enough. I then gave him 2 other examples. Boruch… Matir Asurim (blessed be Hashem for releasing the prisoner) & told him why don’t you lock yourself in a empty room for 1 hour?-it doesn’t need to be a prison cell it could even have a little furniture, & then come out an hour later to freedom & the world etc…. Boruch… Zokeif Kefufim (blessed be Hashem for straightening the bent) & told him why don’t you stand straight for one hour, no knuckles, elbows or knees, & then loosen yourself free. You will not know how to thank Hashem enough for giving you so much… how would a person eat & put food in his mouth without using his elbows? These are just a few examples. The second person approached me & I replied to him from a different perspective, I Told him if a company of 1000 employees had a policy that all employees must hand in their cell phone from 9:00am-when they arrive-until 5:00pm-when they leave-when he would get it back (at 5:00pm upon leaving) the person would not just look at his missed calls & text messages but would actually start to see the beauty of “the cell phone” & everything that it does…. upon the Third person approaching me-in the midst of a major snowstorm on a friday night-& asked me how will he ever make it home in such deep snow & darkness? I asked him if he knew what I think of when I see snow at night? He replied no, so I told him of the pesukim we say during maariv & in the morning of, Hashem takes light from darkness & dark from lightness. i.e. what else could light up the entire ground in the midst of darkness like snow? With Hashem deciding on each storm how big it will be & each snowflake if it will stick-to the ground-or become water in mid-air etc… BOTTOM LINE: there is always a way to look at every situation in the positive way (from a big water bill in the mail to other sad situations or any other situation a person is in.)
I write this in sadness and with honesty cause i can’t believe such a special nation as us klal Yisroel could have reached so low to a level as what I’m about to write.
Today i call our daily davening which is in truth supposed to be on a level of love and thanks to Hashem for everything Hashem has and continues to give his loving children non stop but most of us just daven cause we were told to daven. Do we now at the age of already davening for 50 or somewhat years even know what the words mean in our tefillos throughout the year? A perfect parable example of what i think of our daily davening today is what if i came over to you and told you i want to say thank you to you cause my friend told me i should cause you gave me $20? What would YOU THINK OF THAT THANK YOU? almost worthless and meaningless. Honestly its completely heartless with no feeling and only cause my friend or Rabbi told me i should go thank you. WELL THAT’S WHY MOST OF US DAVEN DAILY cause we were told to daven. Do we know what the words actually mean? Or actually think and have kavana during davening?
If this is sadly our truthful situation then how can we ever expect our tefillos to be answered by our loving father and king of kings Hashem ruler of the entire world and all worlds?
May we all start davening and asking for things with truthfulness and love and then our prayers will be answered with love as we say 3x daily in Ashrei karov Hashem…… Hashem is close to all who call out to him to all those who call out with truth/wholeheartedly
Isaiah Hanavi calls it mitzvos anashim melumadim, done from route without thinking when tefila is called avoda shebelev, work from the heart. The work is to have the proper kavonos, thoughts.
It says תפילה בלא כוונה כגוף בלא נשמה, tefila without kavana is like a body without a soul.
Wolf: That was my sole objection.
Then I guess we both agree on my main point… that I am no better than he.
The Wolf
I wake up each morning with my first act of the day being an act of thanking Hashem by saying Modeh Ani…. For returning my Neshama to my Body.
May we all learn to appreciate everything Hashem gives us and not take anything for granted in life
Most non jewish people looked at this situation and were impressed and a kiddush hashem was created. They werent thinking about him not thanking Hashem. It is you evil jews that are turning this into a chillul hashem.
As much as i blame YWN for writing that horrible article i blame people like @besalel @philospher @syag lechochma for enabling them to write these hateful things towards other people.
@Philospher to say you hate them is unbelievable and a disgrace to yiddishkeit and all the values of the torahWe don’t usually let these through, just wanted to give y’all a glimpse of why things get deleted and then the author blames it on us not wanting to approve opposing opinions
Mod X > We don’t usually let these through
How is this opinion worse than other opinions? Maybe “evil jews” is a bad turn of words, but his thought is pretty clear and he calls Jews not to constantly find reasons to hate. Some may disagree, but there is nothing treif. I am not trying to argue with the mods, just stating that your admonition in this case is not clear to me.
Hm, not black PS, either a different mod or a different mood.
Do mods have mood? Can I ask this in honor of Adar?
I was just reading about one of the Afghani trying to get his special visa stamped in the last days of Kabul, and he was confronted by the over-worked Statie who seemed to be angry at the previous person and talked to him in a rude and loud way for no reason. I wonder whether mods lose balance after an outrageous post, or maybe have a l’chaim to get it back.
Hodu laHashem…. Thank you Hashem…..
I just finished saying Hallel to Hashem on both days of Rosh Chodesh Adar for everything Hashem does for each and everyone of us non stop without us even realizing it and giving Hashem the proper Thanks and praise we all owe Hashem….
But i didn’t stop there cause Thanking Hashem never stops and dovid Hamelech even made a special chapter in tehillim we all say on Shabbos of thanks to Hashem of chapter 92 where giving thanks to Hashem is on a higher level and he says IT IS GOOD TO THANK HASHEM AND TO SING TO THE HIGH SUPREME KING HASHEM RULER OF THE WORLD
I now say thank you to Hashem openly and with true faith and trust in Hashem knowing that everything Hashem does is for our very best for a recent true tragedy i have personally experienced.
And still working on recovering from.May we all say chapter 92 of tehillim with meaning and feeling of thanks and appreciation whenever we say this chapter and everyday
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