not their fault

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  • October 17, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #599994
    miritchka
    Member

    we were invited to friends of ours for a sukkos meal. We get together pretty often as we’re good friends.

    Now these friends have a brother that is emotionally/mentally (dont understand the difference) ill. Due to family issues, this brother started to live with them pretty often. This sukkos was the first time that we had a meal with this brother present.

    During the meal, we were subject to outbursts from this brother. He would yell at anyone who ticked him off in the slightest way or if someone said something that he didnt like. It seems that the family (they dont have small children) is used to it and just takes it in stride. I have small children and i dont like it when they hear someone call their mother or father a bad name or listen to words that although they arent curses, its not language i want my children exposed to.

    What should i do? should we stop getting together? should i invite them but tell them not to bring this brother? should i send my kids to our parents when we want to get together?

    October 17, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #819538
    TheGoq
    Participant

    So whose fault is it? if he has mental health issues is that his fault? i understand your problem but really dislike the title of this thread.

    October 17, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #819539
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If they had a child who had no Legs or No Arms or was otherwise severly disfigured would you feel the same

    October 17, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #819540
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That’s a pretty loaded question.

    I think as long as it is only a bad influence, I would keep going. The main influence kids get is from their parents- I’m not very concerned about outside influences. (Yes, that is the truth. If outside influences were such an issue, you would see higher rates of kids going off the derech in 5 towns than in williamsburg. Nobody has ever made such a claim.)

    However, I am more concerned about him scaring your kids. Your kids do not need to be subjected to abuse, neither to maintain your friendship, nor to encourage the other family who was kind enough to take their brother in.

    October 17, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #819541
    adorable
    Participant

    why cant you tell your children some of the situation. explain that this man is unfortunately not emotionally ok and that this is the only reason why he can talk this way even though its not ok for them. paint him as a nebach in their eyes and they will pity him instead of try to copy him

    October 17, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #819542
    2scents
    Participant

    Best thing is to be open.

    It solves most problems. Unless your friend is a little unreasonable.

    October 17, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #819543
    miritchka
    Member

    The Goq: My point exactly, its no ones fault: not my friends fault and not the brother cuz he’s not well. I apologize if i offended you.

    zahavasdad: With all due respect, please read my original post again. The issue lies with his actions, not anything physical.

    popa: I am worried about the influence, but more than that, i dont know what goes through a childs head when they hear someone yelling at their parents and calling them names. Thats what bothers me most. My children arent afraid of him because they are exposed to MR patients all the time. My husband works with mentally/emotionally disturbed people and we go on different outings with them often.

    adorable: my children are very young. I dont think there is a way for them to understand. Thats a great suggestion though that i would’ve used if my children were old enough to understand. But try explaining the meaning of ’emotionally/mentally sick’ to a child and who knows what they’ll think…that its ok to be this way when you have a stomache ache or headache…know what i mean?

    2scents: i dont know how to tell my friend that i cant come to her because her brother is an issue. It was not easy on her part to have to take this brother in, i dont want to make it harder…

    October 17, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #819544
    happiest
    Member

    I think it is an amazing learning experience for children. They will learn to accept people who are different and to be ok with situations that might not be the most comfortable for them. They will also not stare at a person that they see on the street who is ‘different’.

    October 17, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #819545
    m in Israel
    Member

    This is a tough issue, but I think you might be underestimating your kids in your hesitation to explain the situation to them. Even a very young child can be told something to the effect that just like sometimes people get sick in their bodies sometimes people get sick in their mind in a way that makes them act or speak strangely or not nice. It is not their fault, it is because they have this sickness, and we should daven to Hashem to help them. In the meantime we should try to ignore them if they say things that are wrong, because they don’t really mean it. Especially if your kids have previous experience with those who are mentally/ emotionally disturbed they should be able to understand that explanation. (Obviously not a baby, but I assume you are not so concerned with a baby who doesn’t understand to begin with!)

    If that really won’t work, and it seems your kids are getting upset by what they are hearing, then perhaps getting together at times when you can go without your kids is the best solution. Can you tell your friend that you admire the difficult thing she has done by taking her brother in, and you do not intend it to come between you, but because being together is hard on your kids you would like to start getting together at times that you don’t need to bring the kids? Maybe a melave malka instead of the Shabbos meal, etc.

    October 18, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #819546
    2scents
    Participant

    I meant discussing the situation. Like help me, what would you do in my situation.

    October 18, 2011 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #819547
    adorable
    Participant

    i think you should tell your children that hes not a well person. you might think they dont understand what you are saying (and you are prob right) but they will get the picture that he’s not your typical and its not ok to talk this way to a parent

    October 19, 2011 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #819548
    miritchka
    Member

    happiest: i agree. That is one of the reasons i am delighted to join my husbands ‘guys’, with the kids, when they go on outings.

    m in israel and adorable: i hear you. i am hesitant to start explaining the whole issue to them. my oldest is 5. like i mentioned, they are exposed to mentally/emotionally disturbed individuals quite often, but the difference is that they dont yell at or call names to my husband. Its not so much what the brother says, its to whom its said. no matter how much you try to explain it to a child or how much the child understands or not necessarily only a child, a teenager too can be hurt when someone yells at or calls names to their parents. For example, one time i was walking in teh street when a disturbed individual who was passing by me stopped me and said ‘your grandmother, your mothers mother, is stupid!’ Now i know this guy is disturbed and i know he has no connection to my grandmother but i was hurt and started to form comebacks in my mind as i walked away.

    2scents: i do want to talk to her but being that it was hard for her to take this brother in and she didnt want to do it but was forced to due to her family circumstances, i dont want her to feel worse about her ‘decision’, like adding fuel to the fire..

    October 19, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #819549
    2scents
    Participant

    By staying silent you will be adding more fuel. Unless you will really be quiet and continue like nothing is going on.

    However most of the times, being open and blunt (in a respectable and friendly matter) it shuts the fire.

    October 24, 2011 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #819550
    miritchka
    Member

    I discussed this with a mutual friend of ours and she said she is not going there with her kids, if at all. She doesnt like the way the brother talks to her husband and wont stand for that. After hearing her talk this way, i couldnt believe how callous that sounded. i felt terrible, especially cuz i probably soudned the same way…I decided to just continue to go and deal with it as it goes along. I talk to my children often about respecting parents/adults and manners, so i’m hoping to somehow bring it up in the conversation if the need arises.

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