April 27, 2020 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1854097Chaim BParticipant
(disclaimer- I am not talking to the top ten percent elite of the yeshiva world. I am speaking to the other 90 percent of the class!)
Like a lot of you, I woke up the first day of Pesach disappointed. The geula has not arrived. And then the 7th day of Pesach. Still not. However, from when the virus hit I was not into the “moshiach is coming” mantra as I felt that it was a cop out. Allow me to explain.
Hashem puts us in situations to have us first think about what we are doing. We are then required to fix what we find wrong in our lives and then we can be Moshiach ready. I have found that people were saying “Moshiach is coming” without a thorough introspection.
Well, now we are mid virus. People have died, are sick, lost jobs, started off marriage in a really compromised fashion, etc. The list goes on. So how are we going to change once this pandemic is over. The “simcha initiative” I thought was a great start. However, I believe there is an overarching issue which requires some real change.
I like to call it entitlement.
I went through and I currently belong to the yeshiva system and I would like to share with you some of my observations.
For starters, I noticed almost all of my friends working jobs that do not bring out their kochos. They got a job in health care, cash advance, leasing, real estate, etc. Any job they can get rich quick and they had connections. So many are snacking their way through podcasts during the day and flirting with danger at night wondering while they are not feeling fulfilled. Interestingly enough, most of them started off their marriage in Israel- “Moser nefesh for Torah” for the first few years of their new life together.
Something is not adding up and I must be missing something.
I decided to search for answers. I realized that we created an entitled generation (myself included).While we were growing up we were entitled to the nicest clothing, camps, restaurants ( it could be because our parents did not know how to communicate and plain old love us without giving us everything). Whatever the case is, we went through school without taking it seriously. The rebbeim had to listen to our parents and we were always right. We never thought about our future, college, real life, etc. “We’ll figure it out” was what we learnt to say.
We come home from Israel and we start shidduchim. The shadchanim promise us rich, pretty, and skinny girls. Entitlement.
We must go back to Israel and get a fat apartment.
Why would I go out with a girl who doesnt come from money. I am entitled.
But why are we demanding that? Well, it is obviously the better, more holy life. False.
(I lived in Israel so I am talking first hand). For most of us going to Israel is not mesirus nefesh for torah (spoiler alert). We know true mesirus nefesh for torah when we see it. Monthly rental cars, Thailand honeymoons, Eilat weekends, Skyline weekly dinners, epic seudos, etc., I do not believe is mesirus nefesh for torah in Eretz Yisroel.
We get back to America usually less serious when we first moved there. And then the cycle continues. We get that job that does not actually talk the language of my soul. We live where no one would bother us. We run away from Rabbis. We do not care for community. Life goes on. The parties get bigger. Our wives get pushed away. We buy them back with jewelry. We start making quick money. We learn how to put that show on. We make those tzedaka smokehouse parties. It looks great. The Mir asks us for money. It is great.
Where are we going wrong?
Where are the old time balle batim, ehrlich medical professionals, who had a true understanding of developing the reason they were placed on the earth?
I dont have the answers. But I do see a place where it can change.
There are so many girls who cant find shidduchim because of money. Great guys wont go near them. Why are we marrying the money and not the girl? CAn we not face our true self and believe that parnasah comes from Hashem. Is it so bad to go out and fulfill your potential and make a living that way. Most of those guys who want full support do not end up learning after their Israel trip is over.
Lets us seek out wives and jobs that actually will bring us closer to Hashem and help ourselves become the eved Hashem we are supposed to become.
So many people had the promising life before Covid. people married rich and now find themselves struggonig. There is a God.
We must ask ourselves, who are we. What do we really need for our future.
If you are starting shidduchim now – ask yourself, who am I? What do I want in a wife. Not what apartment can her father get me. Ask yourself who you really are. Maybe start a course that really speaks to you.
We are a special nation. We know how to fix things.
Let’s do it!April 28, 2020 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1854134🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I hear people say that when this is over it will be a different world. I don’t really see it, but i certainly am davening hard for it to happen.
Well said!April 28, 2020 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1854133JosephParticipant
Excellent, Chaim B.April 28, 2020 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1854139CTRebbeParticipant
Wise words from someone so young. Unfortunately, my guess is that the time spent writing this well thought out treatise will go to waste as it gets buried in the CR archives. I wish someone would give you the forum to speak to your generation. Unfortunately, when it comes from older bearded Rabbis they are seen as “kill-joy fuddy duds”. Your message to a generation of yeshivalight is powerful and speaks to the other 10% too.April 28, 2020 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1854145
I read your post. You seem to have followed the trail, and it works with money and little values. So, why do you suggest removing the money aspect by marriage? Marriage is where money is only a side issue. To make marriage fit the pattern of the rest of our life cycle, we inflate the money aspect of shidduchim. How about removing the money BEFORE shidduchim? Maybe the Mir could make it better known that those that support the Mir are not deserving of mention together with those that study there. May you merit to rejoin the latter.April 28, 2020 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1854192NuritParticipant
Unfortunately, your view is very much a yeshivaish issue. It is nis not the other 90% of us. As a baalat tshuva I did not have your experiences. I hope that this experience of Covid will allow us all to realize what is important. That is coming close to hashem and judging people favourably. I have felt that the yeshiva world has looked down, judged and had an elite attitude about themselves. Of course, not all…. But too many times, I have felt it. We are all one. Your post should be an article in YWN.April 28, 2020 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1854152KilaolomchasdoParticipant
As someone from the younger generation, I’m not sure I fully agree with you, but I’ll get to that later. First, I certainly agreed with that first part. It’s been a big pet peeve of mine that many times when Hashem does things like this, people decide to be boei’t (kick away) the nisayon, and say “clearly mashiach is coming!” and go on about there lives as if nothing happens. Look, I have no idea whether or not, moshiach is coming through this, but I know for CERTAIN that Hashem wants us to use these difficult times to grow through them and bring us closer to Him and His avodah. This should cause all of klal yisroel to sit down and do a REAL chesbon hanefesh, and come up with ACTUAL tachbulos on how to fix their flaws (not just say “I’ll take care of it.” REALLY come up with a strategy to work on it). Yes, it’s hard, but this is an amazing opportunity for growth, and it’d be a real shame to squander it.
I do agree that our generation has been too entitled, but are so many guys really looking for money and the prettiest girls? It could be because I’m still in Yeshiva and sheltered to this, but I don’t find that to be true with my chevrah. Also, you said “CAn we not face our true self and believe that parnasah comes from Hashem.” While, obviously all parnasah comes from Hashem, lemaisah, I believe some hishtadlus is necessary too. For example, I don’t believe a guy who plans to learn in kollel for many more years should be going out with a girl who’s an assistant teacher (not working towards a degree), and neither sets of parents have any money. How would they pay rent and for their kids the next years? Of course, this doesn’t mean he should be b’davkah going for someone who’s fully loaded either, but it should be that al pi derech hatevah, they’ll be able to make it work until the man gets a real job (and yes, I agree he should have a real plan, and it should be something that enables him to become closer with Hashem). It could be you didn’t mean he should completely ignore financial situations, though.
Truth be told, I believe I mostly agree with you. Just that one point. I also very much agree people seem to be focused on chitzonios more than pinimi’s at times.April 28, 2020 7:42 am at 7:42 am #1854164Sam KleinParticipant
Unfortunately in today’s generation when a person or klal yisroel as a nation faces a problem we have a major problem called FACING REALITY almost everyone will block it from their face and convince themselves that what does this horrific coronavirus wake up call coming directly from Hashem have to do with me? What do you want from me Hashem? But in the back of our minds we all know the truth-myself included-were just not ready 3 FACE REALITY and admit to Hashem that we get your wake up call for serious teshuva ASAP together as a nation and we will all do teshuva ASAP, so we tragically continue to live in denial and leave Our loving father Hashem no choice but to continue hitting us with Horrific tragedies R”L.
How much longer will it take for us to wake up and FACE REALITY? How come the gedolei Hador have still not made a time for serious teshuva achdus and tefilla with fasting like they did in Nineveh and in the story of Purim? How much worse do we need it to get C”V?
I daven on behalf of the entire klal yisroel that we wake up ASAP together to serious teshuva and achdus so it doesn’t get worse C”V
Are we all seriously blind and think the Coronavirus situation is just coincidence shutting down the entire world and locking us all into our homes? WAKE UP MY LOVING BROTHERS.
Hashem loves his children klal yisroel and is waiting to bring Mashiach as soon as we do teshuvaApril 28, 2020 8:35 am at 8:35 am #1854223
Does my gadol decide, or yours? Kidding. Large teshuva gatherings are not an option. If one did not figure out to do teshuva on his own, the Gedolim cannot convince him either. We have no one to blame this time.April 28, 2020 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1854224
It would be wonderful if we where made up of 90% Baalei Teshuva. The more money, less values, path, is the widest path right now. The fundraising is everywhere. Though not all are as caught up in it as Chaim was.April 28, 2020 8:40 am at 8:40 am #1854227
It depends on the generation and sector that you grew up in. I grew up in the 70s and 80 where this mindset was unheard of, people in the city lived in small houses or two bedroom apt, Monsey had small houses, Lakewood was an enclave of serious bnai torah who lived in a minimalist society No one drove around with high end lease cars, EY was only for the ultra serious and ultra committed lifestyle, with meat maybe twice a week and no credit card from “der schver”
Outside the “Yeshiva velt” this is still the exception, the MO community has no concept of “schver support” and chasidisher only stay in kollel for 1-5 years and then go to work.
Three out of the five industries that will take the heaviest hit from Corona is that the frum olam is heavy into,
Nursing homes, Real Estate and Construction, it will be years before they recover or even ever get back to our current level, so in the near term “scvhver support” may not happen,April 28, 2020 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1854359charliehallParticipant
Kurt Eichenwald (Jewish father, non-Jewish mother) just accurately pointed out that much of the country — not just Jews — are resentful at having to put up with inconveniences that are nothing to what our parents and grandparents had to put up with during World War II — and he was talking about those who were safe in America, not those facing genocide in Europe.
We will get through this. If we continue to prevent the spread of the virus most of us will survive long enough to benefit from the vaccine that will come. The economy will rebound quite quickly, as it did after the H1N1 pandemic — as long as the government doesn’t continue stupid policies like trade wars. Our infrastructure is not bombed out like much of Europe after the world wars; the loss of life, while large, will not be anything like the 1940s; and pent up demand from being confined to home will be a huge boost to many industries.
All difficult times are opportunities for self-reflection. This has been a consistent Jewish theme since the time of Chazal — really since the time of the Naviim! We can appreciate that which Hashem has gifted us and share with those less well off.April 28, 2020 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1854379
I think Chaim was not specifically talking about support, as much as what a large role money plays in the whole process. he was always trading money for values, and values for money. This was a wake up call. He wants to value his family, and not by their happyness.April 28, 2020 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1854410The little I knowParticipant
I hear you, and recognize that you utter painful truth. I also see comments, which B”H do not reflect a lot of backlash. So you have garnered several who agree with you.
Now the sour grapes. You are correct in noting that the “Moshiach is coming” approach is counter-productive. It removes us from focusing on our tafkid. It sells itself as a defense mechanism to cope with the immense and severe anxiety we have while experiencing this crisis. This is amplified when we watch the tragic deaths around us. Today’s media is reporting the number of pages of obituaries from various newspapers and publications. The mechanism sells itself as a sanctimonious thing, as we are all supposed to be maaminim about the coming of Moshiach. But it diverts our avodah on our own, unique self-improvement. We are too easily sucked into the trap of running around to collect impressions from our Gedolei Yisroel for a reason why the tragedy has befallen us. “It’s all because of talking in shul.” “It’s because of bitul Torah.” “It’s because of inadequate tznius.” Etc. Rav Shteinman ZT”L was not one of those apt to make general statements like this, and would respond that we should do our own cheshbon hanefesh and fix the problems we find.
The kollel system has many advantages. Yet, we are far more prone to encounter the casualties. It is silly to give the responsibility of managing a home to someone with zero means. Our Chazal guided us to have a career path prior to marriage. No, I am not against kollel or learning after the wedding. But we have vilified the one that works, makes an honest living, and is koveya ittim. We have said the vilest things about a bochur that seeks training in a field where parnosoh would be enabled, so that he doesn’t need to spend his life as a dependent. We subjugated the shidduch system to this upside down perception of Torah value, and made the “catch of the day” the “learning boy”. This comes with zero assurance that the “learning boy” is not someone just with the label, and no one knows whether this “catch” will end up in places unbecoming to a real learning boy. And it says nothing at all about the midos that will be brought into the marriage. So it became about money. Should money marry money? Should the rich marry outside of their financial strata? Aren’t we all entitled to spend the early years of marriage with the bills being paid by someone else? You nailed it. Entitlement. A dependent generation.
My sad realization is that we are less than truthful when we declare our lifestyle choice about being a “ben Torah”, or about Yir’as Shomayim. It’s more likely to be a direct result of following the masses that espouse this upside down perception of Ratzon Hashem. It certainly lacks credibility when one reviews the many psukim and Divrei Chazal. But if it sounds holy, it must be the quickest road to heaven. Sorry, but I’ll return to the guidance of our Neviim and Chazal before following these trends and styles. Maybe, just maybe, some of this will be part of the process we develop in our effort to return to normal after COVID.April 28, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1854436anonymous JewParticipant
What we will see is a sharp drop is the entitlement of going to yeshivas and seminaries, both in the US and in EY.
Every boy sitting and learning regardless of ability (for shidduch purposes) is a recent phenomenon . From the establishment of the first European yeshivas thru the 1970’s, only the best,the future leaders, went to yeshivas. Why? We as a community could not afford it. In Europe, if you didn’t work you didn’t eat. Poor shtetl Jews could not support average B or C students. Now, with so many people out of work , sick or,unfortunately no longer alive, parents are going to think real hard before spending $30,000 for a boy or girl who’s an average student, at best. I believe the entitlement of a year or 2 in Israel is over.April 28, 2020 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1854479Dr. EParticipant
I’ve noticed some local young Youngeleit who have been on Bein Hazemanim since Purim. They are at a crossroads now. I am referring to the guys who are in Kollel for social or remedial reasons. They have no daily Beis Medrish destination into which they can disappear and don’t have the zihtzfleisch to learn for more than about an hour at a time, certainly not by phone in a dining room of a house that has become their hotel. So, unless a Kollel guy is in fact “the real deal” (acumen, potential, and zihtzfleisch), the current matzav has made it pretty obvious that he should really be doing something else, starting right now, and with the rest of his life. Camping out as a couple or young family by one set of parents indefinitely, might seem like living the good life now. But, it’s really just a postponement of their growing up and maturing from their entitlement. There are plenty of people from the older generation who in fact had greater hasmodah as bochurim, yet went to work right away after marriage to support their families.April 28, 2020 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1854548
Yeshivos always had slightly more than the “best” and “future” leaders. The main difference is lentgh Two years in kollel, totals ten years in yeshivos! There were overqualified rabbonim that were in yeshiva for less!April 28, 2020 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1854710CTRebbeParticipant
Although I agree 100% with the OP I do not agree with all the doomsayers of what will be the result of this. It does not need to mean that kollel enrollments will drop and that everyone will get “a dose or reality”. Hopefully it will be a wake up call to the younger generation to live a lifestyle more like the kollel families of the 70’s and 80’s. Less materialistic, not relying on parents, no entitlement expectations and most importantly—a renew commitment for mesirus nefesh for Torah. I did not get parental support during my kollel years and I think I was better off because of it. I made a couple of bucks during bein hasedarim and at night and it made me appreciate every minute I was privileged to still be in yeshiva. Hopefully we will “get it” and our yungerlight will gain that appreciation too.
Remember when a yeshivishe car meant a beat up 15-20 year old station wagon? Today it means a 1-2 year old Camry or SUV. There was a certain pride of those who drove the “woody” station wagon that ran on bitachon. Let’s bring those days back and ditch the whole gimme liefstyle which entails living off someone else’s pain and sweat.April 29, 2020 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1854780anonymous JewParticipant
CTrebbe, You’re missing my point. I’m talking about the phenomenon of ALL boys and girls have to go learn in Israel and all boys , for shidduch purposes, must sit and learn. That model is no longer economically sustainable, especially for boys who are only average students.April 29, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1854796Dr. EParticipant
I don’t think that there will be any “wake-up call” where they will give up the perks. If the clock were turned back to the 70’s and 80’s, none of the people we are talking about would be incentivized to go into Kollel. The perks to which they have become entitled are very much at the core of the issue.
I am wondering if parents and in-laws, having had the opportunity to see first-hand over the past 2 months, whom they have been supporting, will finally wake-up and smell the coffee. Many of the parents/in-laws are experiencing business and job challenges themselves, which might give them pause to how their now more scarce money is being spent.
A related point is that the Yeshiva system has evolved to a point where there is vested self-interest to hold on to guys until they are into their 30’s. It maintains the funding stream and has created jobs which previously never existed.
Parents and in-laws have become increasingly connected to this system in order to give them validation as frum Yidden. This drives the chinuch choices for their children from a young age which ultimately sets them onto this trajectory. They don’t realize that the seeds toward this lifestyle are planted very early. And the longer that their kids stay in the system, the less hashpa’ah they will have as role models.April 29, 2020 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1854960rationalParticipant
I and a painfully few others have been advocating a change in the “system” for years. I don’t see it happening. Covid-19 probably caused a temporary setback, but the system will survive. Entitlement, social status, living well, good single malt for kiddush, and all the other trappings of yeshivish life will most likely continue.
It may take a while, but I will continue to see young women with thousands of dollars of other women’s hair on their head strolling through Ramat Eshkol in the most expensive clothing and pushing the most expensive stroller while their husbands are being “moser nefesh” for Torah.
As an aside, when I hear a kollel boy is being “moser nefesh” in Yeshiva, I feel ill. Talk to my boy who spent five years in yeshiva and almost had his head blown off as a paratrooper fighting in a war about the term “moser nefesh”. And he was lucky. The soldier two feet in front of him was not. You’ll change the way you use the term quickly.April 29, 2020 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1854994JosephParticipant
Every time there’s been a recession over the last 60 years we’ve heard those with a more leftward view smirking and saying “the Kollel system is now over.” We’ll continue hearing that refrain from those same circles for the next 60 years.
That said, the Kollel system over the last 60 years has certainly improved the spiritual welfare of Klal Yisroel. It has been a tremendous tremendous benefit that outweighs whatever faults one might find in it.April 29, 2020 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1855017
@Joesph, you are wrong after during the last recession a lot of kollel yungerlat suddenly had the “the schvers credit card and high end lease stopped, and horror of horror’s went to work either as a clay kodesh or in the businesses world. I remember in kollel of the 70s and 80s maybe even the 90s and it was a very different animal,
@rational misiras nefesh is one of the most overused words these day.April 30, 2020 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1855179
Kollel is not a system. Someone who is married, and needs a system to learn all day……….. I am disgusted when my yeshiva friends are surprised to see working men, learning all day on legal holidays. Which leads to my point. If we are talking about to much materialism in kollel life today, then we missed the point. Someone who is learning Torah all day, does not see any merit in extra materialism. Which means that we are not being raised to learn all day. Only to stay in the Beis Medrash. Which is great. We could become the janitors and administrators of the kollel.April 30, 2020 8:16 am at 8:16 am #1855186interjectionParticipant
“while their husbands are being “moser nefesh” for Torah”
Who said they think they are being moser nefesh? If their parents are happy to support then what’s the problem? If their parents are not happy about it then they should speak up.April 30, 2020 8:27 am at 8:27 am #1855218jdf007Participant
As an outsider of sorts, I liked the start of the thread. I notice a lifestyle and high end attitude that I am not accustomed to myself in certain circles. At first I thought that maybe some of you guys are brought up with a higher aspiration than I did in my neighborhood.
Regardless, my point is in the replies which concern me. Someone made the joke about new versus old cars. Same here in my secular high school, college, and so on. Why did they drive new cars and not 10 year old ones? The non-Jewish world is even more entitled! Look at the “I want a haircut” people outside of New York. It is going to upset you to hear, but a chunk of them do not believe that the virus is that bad, and some don’t believe it even exists! Yes, that is not a typo and what you have to deal with out there. You are talking in a way that the worst is behind you and the future. About half of the nation is so entitled, that they’re just going to deem it safe, and ignore the consequences to return to normal (for them) as quick as possible. This thing is far from over. Maybe it is in other countries, but not here. The more I ponder this the harder time I have. Entitled for going to school versus entitled with silly expressions I won’t type out and going to a parade or concert during a pandemic because you feel like it, and whatever happens happens.
Maybe the problem here is, I don’t see what’s so different or exclusive other than the fact that we have the option to go somewhere as great as Israel. But then, these entitled I want a haircut folks travel too. In some countries it’s called Gap year and they take a year off from college, that’s their culture, a years vacation during college! So, maybe the problem isn’t so much that you wanted to marry someone pretty, and then calling that entitled. Maybe it has to do with the world at large. Should we have this near libertarian “to each their own” mentality for the world? Have you seen any American politicians or groups apologize and say they were wrong to ignore and downplay the virus and do nothing. The mayor of NY, the MTA head, anyone else. Or are they all entitled so as to pretend they’re some quick thinking savior? So far I’ve seen the head of France apologize and talk unity and that is it. Everyone else is taking credit where they failed.
There’s something wrong in this society and its views towards life, and they’re going to give you a second wave of covid if civilization isn’t exported somehow. I thought I saw international unity and cooperation with no borders 2 months ago. Now I see protests, divisions, and haircut battles in the US. A pandemic can’t even bring these people together!April 30, 2020 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1855245
@007 Silly question perhaps on my part but if your not an orthodox Jew why are you spending time on the YWN in general and commenting about Kollel in particular?April 30, 2020 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1855379
@commonsaychel your comment about horror of horrors people might thinks about leaving kollel and going to work as clay kodesh shows just how much you know actually know about the yeshiva/kollel system and leads me to question why you are spending your time commenting on it.
@n0mesorah a system is “a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.” People who are not working for a living but instead learn for most of the day need something in place to allow them to have chavrusas, discuss what they are learning with peers, and have all requisite seforim vichulu. They also need a financial support system which includes an institution that is raising money and allocating it. And your yeshiva friends are surprised to see working men learning all day on legal holidays because they are few and far between.April 30, 2020 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1855492
If someone is married and on their own, they do not need anything in place to sit and learn. When it is your greatest value, you just do it. The yungerliet that survived Europe, sat and learnt for decades, with no systems in place. The RJJ alumni that chose yeshiva over college, assumed they could learn their whole life without kollel. Why would anyone defend kollel as a virtue, without a ‘Torah no matter what’ mindset?April 30, 2020 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1855513
@ Rabbi Greenspan, My father was from the original kollel yungerlite in the first Kollel in the US [BME], my sons went thru the kollel system as did my son in law, all with partial support and a very simple lifestyle now they all work,. how familiar are you with the kollel systemApril 30, 2020 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1855568
@commonsaychel Your comment that going into klay kodesh is something to express horror suggests you had a fundamental lack of understanding of the kollel system. That being said I only pointed that out in response to you questioning someone elses participation. I understand the dif, was just pointing out the irony.
@n0mesorah I dont really understand what you are calling the kollel system, I assumed it was the yeshivos and communities that are centered around those yeshivos. If by system you mean high end cars and sheitels, I dont think that has to do with kolleliim. To your point that people in previous generations did it without anything in place, very few people nowadays would be able to learn and not have any worries about parnassa. But very few in previous generations did it too. The expansion of people sitting and learning is directly related to the fact that we have a system. Would it be more ideal for people to do it your way? Perhaps. But we cant, so this is the next best thing.April 30, 2020 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1855584
I am referring to married men needing direction in what to learn and how to find a good chavrusa and so on. I am not questioning the pre-marriage set up. Once i set out on my own, I need to figure out how to spend my time learning. Otherwise, there are better ways for me to serve Hashem.April 30, 2020 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1855597
@rabbigreenstpan, it was a tongue in cheek comment, and you never answered my questionApril 30, 2020 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1855646
@n0mesorah you seriously think that because people feel they will do better learning as part of a klal they are better off serving hashem by selling insurance? And for the record most decent sized kollelim have different options and different limudim that allow people to choose what they want to learn. The kollel infrastructure isn’t there to direct anyone what to learn or to arrange chavrusas. It’s there because throughout our history we learnt in yeshivos, not alone. The reason we didn’t have this particular setup untill recently was because few married learnt full days until recently. And how would you take care of the financial aspect if everyone is learning in his basement? If your agenda is that everyone should go to work than say it outright, but if not I totally don’t get you.
@common To answer your question I come across it on a daily basis (pre covid)May 1, 2020 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1855739
I am very very very serious. Learning is not democratic. One has to learn according to their capabilities. We cannot afford the kollel for all mentality take over the Torah. If one does not have a chavrusa, or their chavrusa is not up to snuff, it is not an excuse. And for the record, with no system, there are far more limudim available. Even if they are not respected in our system. Of course we would still learn in a beis medrash. Just, those who know why they are there would be the majority. In the past, the world was less complicated. Rabbonim were able to work, minister to their kehillah, and learn what we now call a full day. Why does a disscussion about the value of learning Torah, always come back to finances?May 1, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1855902
@n0mesorah “Learning is not democratic” If you mean it’s not something you can choose whether or not you want to do, I agree. I don’t see what that has to do with the kollel system.
“One has to learn according to their capabilities” Which is why people join kollelim or chaburas in kollelim that correspond with their capabillities.
“We cannot afford the kollel for all mentality take over the torah” I don’t see it as kollel for all, and it definitely isnt taking over the torah. But it does strengthen torah when so many people are learning.
“If one does not have a chavrusa or his chavrusa is not up to snuff it is not an excuse” Correct, but people will learn better with chavrusas, and there are sources in gemara for that. (cherev al habadim)
It comes down to finances because people wont learn well, (or do anything else well) when they are homeless.
Im convinced of my opinion, your convinced of yours and im pretty sure you want the last word so I’m done here.May 3, 2020 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1856174
I think calling kollelim a system, demeans them. At that point Yeshivaliet are free to grow any way they choose. I understand your thinking on kollelim to be democratic, that it is about the group growing and learning together. At this point in life, the Ben Torah has the tools to make unique contributions to the Oilam HaTorah. One should not be stifled because his chavrusa, rosh kollel, or everyone in the kollel disagrees with him.
I think you may have missed my earlier complaint. If one reaches kollel, and still needs to be held by the hand to find their way around the beis medrash, they are probably better off in the outside world. They could learn how to guide themselves, and then return to the beis medrash.
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