Numbers and Hashem

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• #611687

(First of all i’d like to preface this by saying- yes, i’m the original yummy cupcake. for some reason no matter how many times I asked for my password, i couldn’t get it, so i haven’t been on here for ages…and I’m also busy like everyone else, so don’t have too much time for this kinda stuff but anyway- it’s me I’m back. I can see from the “where is…” thread that i was sorely missed. thanks everyone (sarcastic rolling of eyes. it feels good to be forgotten. i must add in thanks to gefen, who kinda can’t forget me 🙂 )

So anywhoz…we were having this discussion on Shabbos. I’m gonna ask a Rav the question, but I wanna know if anyone has heard of an answer for my question. We know that in the concept of numbers, you can always add one. the numbers go through and through. there is no end. no beginning. But we know Hashem is the Only “thing” “being” “entity” however you’d like to refer to Him, that is infinite. So by nature, how can numbers have no beginning and no end. the concept of numbers then must have a beginning and an end. but how could they if you can always add one? Now I know I know, we can’t compare Hashem and numbers- I’m not. I just want to know how the numbers can be infinite if Hashem is the Only Being that is infinite. (and I know numbers aren’t a being. I don’t really feel comfortable calling Hashem a “thing”)

#996322

Did you try the `reset password` link?

#996323
popa_bar_abba
Participant

Anyone who says numbers are infinite is idiotic. Of course they are not infinite.

The proof that purports to prove that they are infinite actually proves the opposite, to anyone who isn’t a retard.

Suppose I tell you the highest number, you will counter that that number plus 1 is higher.

But you yourself are just substituting a different highest number! You aren’t substituting infinite numbers–just a different highest number.

You see that? The proof itself just gives a different finite number!

(Yes, I know what the retards answer. They say that you can always add one to whatever number is given, so I will never be able to say a number that they cannot just add one to, even if I sit all day and suggest numbers. Which basically substitutes a “dare” for a mathematical proof, since you’re just saying I’ll never say enough numbers.)

#996324
Sam2
Participant

PBA: Numbers being infinite in no way is a question on God. But… you might want to brush up your mathematical and logical skills. What you say sounds good, but it’s quite silly. Which might be what you are going for anyway. 🙂

#996325
popa_bar_abba
Participant

What you say sounds good, but it’s quite silly.

As usual, a poor craftsman blames his tools.

#996326
☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

At the risk of sounding retarded, I agree with Sam on both points.

Numbers aren’t beings or entities, they’re just a way of quantifying beings or entities.

#996327
popa_bar_abba
Participant

Stupid is as stupid does.

#996328
E-O-M
Participant

It’s an interesting point and question. Im in no way qualified to answer but after thinking for a minute… There isn’t quite anything I can think of in existence like numbers in the sense that they’re infinite…. Probably explains why the secrets of our religion are deeply rooted in numbers and gimmatria… The very nature of the numeric and mathematical system that hashem created are among the biggest marvels of creation. For instance there is a shem of gd that corresponds with Pi

#996329
popa_bar_abba
Participant

Numbers are actually not very infinite. For example, there are more points on a line that is an inch long than there are numbers.

So really gematrias should be about points on a line.

#996330
Sam2
Participant

DY: Thanks…? That was a nice backhanded agreement, I guess? If even that.

🙂

#996331
☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

Oh, my, that did sound bad. I meant that I would be called retarded by popa for agreeing with you that numbers are infinite.

Yes, popa, infinity comes in different sizes. So if I’m infinitely retarded, you can still be twice as retarded as I.

#996332
squeak
Participant

Try this for logic. From the OP: Numbers are infinite. Only Hashem is infinite. Ergo, numbers are Hashem. QED.

I find questions such as these sophomoric. They reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts under discussion. Not going to give a lecture here about infinities (of which there are several) but suffice it to say there is nothing to worry yourself over.

#996333
E-O-M
Participant

Phew, Thank gd there is nothing to worry ourselves about. Without such genius know-it-alls, us sophomoric minded would be completely lost.

#996334
squeak
Participant

Well, if she actually wants an answer she should ask a mathematician instead of a rav. And she needs to promise not to yawn when he answers her.

#996335
popa_bar_abba
Participant

So squueak, you’re saying a rav wouldn’t know the answer?

#996336
🍫Syag Lchochma
Participant

squeak – how insensitive of you! Some people find math downright exciting!

#996337
🍫Syag Lchochma
Participant

I can see from the “where is…” thread that i was sorely missed. thanks everyone

maybe you missed it:

where is Gefen et al?

#996338

syag, I’m not gefen! gefen did see ur post 🙂 I’m yummy cupcake turned yummiest cupcake! maybe ur all on diets and don’t do cupcakes anymore? but the screen name “yummy salad” just doesnt sit well with me… and yes i did want to know if any of you had serious answers. A Rav should know how to answer me. And if one doesn’t, I can ask a different one (which would be ok, cuz it’s not like i’m trying to find a loophole for anything- this has nothing to do with halacha, so I can hop around until I get an answer).

EOM- its interesting what you said about numbers and gematria being such a part of who we are. because ppl were telling me that i can’t compare Hashem and numbers because Hashem is spiritual and numbers aren’t. But I said that in yiddishkeit numbers are very spiritual- but anyway i’m not trying to compare, like i said before. but hopefully you get my drift.

Adv. 1. et al. – and others (‘et al.’ is used as an abbreviation of `et alii' (masculine plural) or`et aliae’ (feminine plural)

#996339

Oh! I didn’t realize she meant others from gefen’s “group” 😉

Thanks for clarifying.

My apologies, Syag.

#996340
squeak
Participant

You tell me popa. Would you answer the question by explaining Hashem or by explaining infinity?

#996341
🍫Syag Lchochma
Participant

I’ll get over it 🙂

#996342
☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

Squeak, enough of each to show how they’re different.

#996343

phew! now i can sleep

#996344
popa_bar_abba
Participant

#996345
E-O-M
Participant

Pba- You answered twice but I can’t quite understand your point- care to be more specific if possible?

Here are my humble thoughts:

Numbers, by nature are meant to quantify, and quantification is almost synonymous with finity (setting specific values for things, no more, no less).

On the flipside- there’s no limit to how high numbers can go, so counting up could be infinite. There is however a limit to how low numbers go. That’s one answer (albeit a weak one) to the OP’s question of how to reconcile the numeric concept with the divine as they relate to Infinitism.

Interestingly, there are 2 unique numbers/quantities that are unlike any others -Zero (the absence of any quantity) and One (the existence of a singular entity) which conceptualize ideas that are beyond the normal calculative and quantitative function of numbers in the general sense.

I think there is definitely a lesson here- especially since a big part of our religion is rooted in numbers. Numerical values (9 digits) are often an aid to our written holy tongue (22 characters) which essentially make up the whole entire cosmos… The same way hashem manifests the divine vis a vis the 22- character alphabet,,/9 too- the same can be said regarding the numeric system. Deep stuff, all just made up, but could be very true.

#996346

so eom, everyone thought of that- that numbers are used to quantify, so they’re finite. but i’m thinking of, you know, if ur not counting anything- just if you sit in a room for years and years and years and keep counting, you can just keep going and going and going. and negative numbers are numbers too.

look this may be one of those questions that we’ll only understand after Mashiach comes…

#996347
HaLeiVi
Participant

Numbers are far from infinite. They actually only go up until 9 (or F in base 16). The fact that theoretically you can keep putting on numbers and reciting more of them is no different from any other aspect to which we plug in infinity.

Philosophical Qs�NO KFIRAH

Created objects can’t be infinite but conceptually there is nothing wrong with a concept being infinite. There is nothing real about it. While travel-able space might in fact be limited, theoretically space can go on and on. This is because the idea we are describing is not a created reality that is contained within its given limits. It is a form of measuring. It never actually happened.

#996348
yitayningwut
Participant

Numbers don’t exist. They are ways of describing things. They are as infinite as the word infinity is.

#996349
popa_bar_abba
Participant

Drat, I wanted yitay to agree with me.

#996350
☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

Would his agreeing with you have made you right?

#996351
CallMeDave
Participant

Hi,

In my humble opinion, numbers are not a thing in itself; it rather represents an object or an idea. For example one apple,two apples etc…, hence you can then add, subtract etc…. but since the item that it represents is an object and the object is finite, therefore, a number is no more than a concept which is relevant to the object. Once the object disappears, so do the numbers, thereby leaving numbers as a finite thing. On the other hand, G-d, Who is not a mortal, nor has any dimensions,is the epitome of Oneness that we have no concept of, and is the only infinite “being”.

If I am wrong then I hope to be corrected.

Dave

#996352
SayIDidIt™
Participant

Hey, is that really our yummy cupcake???

SiDi™

#996353
Torah613Torah
Participant

#996354

yes sidi- it really is!

call me dave- i’m not talking abt when ur counting something finite. if i just sit in a dark room and count, whether i’m just thinking about the numbers, or speaking with my mouth, i can keep counting and counting and counting (although, i don’t think i know names for too many numbers that are past googol…but that’s besides the point). so you could count numbers without them representing anything finite.

#996355
E-O-M
Participant

“Numbers don’t exist. They are ways of describing things. They are as infinite as the word infinity is.”

Numbers are a way to give value, and values have no end to how high they can go. There is a concept of “without end” despite the fact that its conceptual and not tangible. I don’t see it as a question per se, but we shouldn’t ignore the lesson.

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