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November 15, 2021 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #2028610mesivta bachurParticipant
As someone a non-chassid who davens nusach sefard I have experianced a range of reactions by others, from mild condescension to being told straight out “you are not yotzei tefilla” can anybody please provide me with some clarity on this important issue?November 15, 2021 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2028628Shimon NodelParticipant
You are definitely yotzeh, but it makes absolutely no sense for you to daven nusach sefard (I say the same for chasidim too 😉)November 15, 2021 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2028669
If you daven Nusach Sefard then you’re Chasidish. You just need to understand that.November 15, 2021 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2028673
That’s dumb. The most famous opposition to switching to Nusach Sfard was the Chasam Sofer. However, if you take the pains to read it, you’ll see that it is not actually Halachic. It is based on Tzinoros.November 15, 2021 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2028683
If that is your minhag, passed down from father to father, then you should probably keep that minhag.November 15, 2021 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2028690
which ones longer?November 15, 2021 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2028692yungermanSParticipant
Hashem is open and always ready to listen to all the tefillos (prayers) of a person in any language-even in English straight from your heart-but when a person davens in Hebrew Hashem listens to it more.
May Hashem listen and answer all your tefillas and everyone else’s in klal yisroelNovember 15, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2028694
The Chasam Sofer says in O’CH 15 that both have the same kavonos which was revealed by the Arizal for nusach sefard as he was a sefardi which is argued by the Minchas Elozor, so if someone wants to be mechaven should daven nusach sefard as Rav Nossan Adler did but all others davened Ashkenaz. The Divrei Chaim says that nusach sefard is an inclusive davenen for all shevotim who don’t know their origin. He says that one can convert from ashkenaz to sefard but not vice versa. The Magen Avraham says in O’CH 68 that each shevat has his own gate where its tefila goes through. The Pri Megodim argues and forbids changing in either direction.November 15, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2028696lowerourtuition11210Participant
simon nodel? who are you to say it “makes absolutely no sense for you to daven nusach sefard “. ever heard of minhag avoseinu byadeinu”?November 15, 2021 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #2028710Shimon NodelParticipant
Baum, you’re cholek on the igros Moshe?November 15, 2021 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #2028713LostsparkParticipant
I davened Nusach sefard in an ashkenazi shul then I realized what’s the point? I bought a siddur in nusach Ari and began davening in a ChaBaD shul.November 15, 2021 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2028733
Reb Eliezer, the Arizal was an Ashkenazi.November 15, 2021 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #2028736
I know that Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L wrote that you can change from sefard to Ashkenaz, but I wasn’t saying that ‘YOU AREN’T ALLOWED TO’ switch. I was just saying that if you have a minhag then follow it. Just because Rav Moshe said you CAN change does that mean anyone who davens sefard all NEED to change to ashkenaz? No, if you daven a certain nusach then you should lechatchila stay with it. If you need to switch it, let’s say your hired as a chazzan in a nusach ashkenaz shul, but you daven nusach sefard, you may change your nusach for then.November 15, 2021 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2028738
IDK what the fight is, I just daven nusach ariNovember 15, 2021 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2028740
in addition, you should not publicly daven something different from what others do. If you were told about it, maybe you were too public about it.
There are several groups, like mentioned above, that support multiple nusachim with a BUT that their nusach is available for everyone … I like more Rabbonim who advise a person from a different Nusach to follow the their own nusach rather than Rav’s.November 15, 2021 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2028746
The Divrei Chaim paskens you can switch from Ashkenaz to Sefard but you cannot switch from Sefard to Ashkenaz.
The Igros Moshe paskens you can switch from Sefard to Ashkenaz but you cannot switch from Ashkenaz to Sefard.November 15, 2021 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2028747☕️coffee addictParticipant
“I davened Nusach sefard in an ashkenazi shul then I realized what’s the point? I bought a siddur in nusach Ari and began davening in a ChaBaD shul.“
You lost me as to the point of your commentNovember 15, 2021 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2028774
If the OP is a bochur in a yeshiva that davens sefard, then it makes a lot of sense to daven the way the Yeshiva is davening. My rebbe rav belsky almost never davened his actual nusach because Torah Vodaas davens sefard, and he was there his entire life.
Sefard as a whole is the product of an immense labor undertaken by the early chasidishe rebbes, especially the maggid.November 15, 2021 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2028786
> Divrei Chaim paskens ..Igros Moshe paskens
so, to respect all opinions, keep your family minhag.November 16, 2021 6:33 am at 6:33 am #2028799LostsparkParticipant
Coffee addict, if my point is lost why bother commenting?November 16, 2021 6:37 am at 6:37 am #2028830
>so, to respect all opinions, keep your family minhag.
nope there’s probably an opinion that disagrees with that 😀November 16, 2021 6:37 am at 6:37 am #2028838commonsaychelParticipant
> Divrei Chaim paskens ..Igros Moshe paskens so, to respect all opinions, keep your family minhag.
This one of the times I completely agree with AAQ, your nusach is no one else’s concernNovember 16, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2028875akupermaParticipant
Nusachs are constantly evolving, and as people migrate and new shuls are created, and people end up going to a shul for reasons that have nothing to do with family traditions. Note how many zionist shuls, especially if they are funded by the zionist state, ended up adopting Nusach Sfard since it was a mixture of traditional the Ashkenazi and Sefardi nusach. If you had a DVD of your ancestors davening, and compared the nusach from the time of the rishonim to today, you would find radical changes that have crept in over the centuries. That’s normalNovember 16, 2021 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2028938
See if you or your parents or grandparents have a siddur or a machzor from older times. I usually use one of them for Yomim Noraim, making me juggle between the shul piyutim and the siddur piyutim.November 16, 2021 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2028950
One thing I do not understand is when Chasidim insist on nusachim. Whole Chasidic thing started as a radical departure from Ashkenaz with various justifications.
Another thing we do not appreciate is where the variety is: all Ashkenaz come from a narrow set of people, both genetically and as nusach and minhag goes, while “Sepharad” represents a multitude of tradition – real Spanish and all other countries where Jews lived for a millennium and more.November 16, 2021 9:58 am at 9:58 am #2028954
> your nusach is no one else’s concern
as in an urban legend story of a yeshiva bucher questioning host’s kiddush cup size that turned out is a yerusha from Brisker Rav or something like that.November 16, 2021 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2029097mesivta bachurParticipant
My yeshiva davens Ashkenaz my family’s minhag is to daven nusach sefard. Tangentially I also where a gartel and have gotten derisive comments on that as well.November 16, 2021 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2029139
In Yeshiva Chaim Berlin they wear a gartel and daven Ashkenaz.November 16, 2021 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2029144
AAQ – chasidim use the term sefard because they’re basing it on mekubalim who were almost completely sefardi. Chabad calls its nusach Ari for the same reason.
Mesivta; you might want to ask a shailoh about what the correct course of action is for you. Davening Ashkenaz for the duration of your time in that yeshiva is something many rabbonim would encourage.November 16, 2021 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2029147
My Rebbi the Matersdorfer Rav, Rav Shmuel ztz’l wore a gartel underneath his beketcher. Only a pasul Sefer Torah has a gartel on the outside.November 16, 2021 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #2029221
Reb Eliezer, Mattersdorf/Yeshiva Chasan Sofer davens Nusach Ashkenaz?November 16, 2021 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2029371
Avira > use the term sefard because they’re basing it on
this is eactly what I said – “with justifications”.November 16, 2021 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2029407
Reb Eliezer, I must say that that’s a very uninformed comment. For most generations, Yidden wore a Gartel when they Davvened. Apparently, Rochel mentioned how Yitzchok put one on. See Rashi Bereishis 30:3.
It was only on the advent of modern clothing when some communities took the view that it is not necessary anymore.November 16, 2021 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2029410
The original Nusach Sefard came from places like yemen & spain (I believe), and it was not a break-off from Nusach Ashkenaz. There is no nusach that’s better (in both opinions) than the other.
So, whatever your family minhag is, you should proabaly follow that.
As @CommonSaychel so wisely put it: your nusach is no one else’s concern. Other people can’t tell you to change your nusach.November 16, 2021 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2029447
TSB> it was not a break-off from Nusach Ashkenaz
?! Sephardi communities are either refugees from Spain or lived for long times wherever they are. Ashkenazi Jews – a small group – came to G-d-forgotten Northern Europe about 1000 years and grew together with Northern Europe thanks to advances in medieval agriculture (possible connection between a new northern European trend of growing wheat and beans to kitniyos)November 17, 2021 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2029504
TS, you’re mixing up sefard with sefardi nuschaos – sefard was started exclusively by Ashkenazim, specifically talmidei habaal shem tov. The maggid was, as I’ve heard, the most involved in establishing the nusach. The changes in davening were based on kabalah, often mimicking sefardi nusach. The name sefard comes, i believe, from the fact that the mekubalim the talmidei habesht were learning from were almost all sefardi.November 17, 2021 1:25 am at 1:25 am #2029514
You can see in that Teshuva of the Chasam Sofer that it wasn’t from the Bal Shem Tov, but rather those who wanted to Daven with Kavanos Ha’ari.November 17, 2021 8:14 am at 8:14 am #2029535takahmamashParticipant
When we made aliyah to a yishuv in the Shomron, I switched from davening nusach Ashkanaz to Sfard. There were 5 shules in our part of the yishuv; 2 were nusach Sfard (including the American shule), 1 was Ari, 1 Edot Hamizrach, and one Ari. There was one Ashkanaz minyan a week, the Shabbat hashkama minyan at one of the shules. I davened there on occasion. Most of the people at that minyan were Sfardim who wanted to daven early.
In Beer Sheva, there are 3 Nusach Ashkanaz shules in the entire city. One of them (the Anglo shule) only has minyanim on Shabbat and chagim. At this point, I strongly prefer davening nusach Sfard anyway. Davening Ashkanaz for the amud (as I did in America for shiva for each of my parents) is now very difficult.November 17, 2021 8:17 am at 8:17 am #2029578
The only time we davened Sefard in Chasan Sofer when we relocated by Rav Shmuel ztz’l temporarily to a sefard shul (not nusach sefard, minhag hamakom) in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn somewhere on 64th Street.November 17, 2021 8:59 am at 8:59 am #2029592
Reb Eliezer, do the bochorim in Chasan Sofer today still daven Nusach Ashkenaz? 90% of the student body today is Chasidish.November 17, 2021 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2029602
I recently went to a wedding where the Rav’s shlita son married his second cousin (Zeltenreich, the Rav’s mother’s brother) where there were more shtreimels than not.November 17, 2021 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2029586
I say maarovis for myself and daven ashkenaz, even when they daven sefard, saying Kedusha quietly as the above Chasam Sofer and not Reb Moshe ztz’l.November 17, 2021 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2029585
Adas Yereim (Wiener) in Williamsburg on 27-31 Lee Avenue, switched to sefard.November 17, 2021 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2029631
> When we made aliyah to a yishuv in the Shomron, I switched from davening nusach Ashkanaz to Sfard.
I did not realize it is a thing to switch your minhag based on what the closest shul is. You can have your nusach and daven with a different minyan, reading privately what you can in your nusach. I guess, if you were in Ethiopia, you would be a Falash Murah by now …November 17, 2021 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2029666hujuParticipant
I am confident that Hashem is not as pickey as most of the commenters. Hashem knows what is in your heart and mind. Davening is as much for the benefit of the davener and Klal Yisrael as it is for Hashem.November 17, 2021 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #2029716
Umm, AAQ, the Falash Mura’s minhag is to use a cross by prayers.November 17, 2021 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2029761
Huju, yidalgu ay ahavah is said regarding am haaratzim. While the soul of prayer is the intention, the body of it is correctly saying the words. If one davens in his mind or by his own personal prayers, he has not satisfied the mitzvah of davening. If one mouths the words and merely knows the translation of the first parsha of shema and the first bracha of shemoneh esrei, he has fulfilled that mitzvah
Two people go to shomayim. One prayed everyday with tears in his eyes without following the siddur. The other paid lip service. We both know what the halacha would be in such a case and who would be rewarded and punished.
Hashem tells us how he wants us to serve him; it is beyond chutzpah to say what we think he “cares” about if we are minimizing a halacha. Irreligious jews say the same illogical things about tefilin, tzitzis, etc..they say “I’m a good person, isn’t that really what Hashem cares about?. do you really think Hashem cares about putting cow skin on your arms?
It’s coming from the same yatzer horaNovember 17, 2021 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2029812ubiquitinParticipant
“Reb Eliezer, do the bochorim in Chasan Sofer today still daven Nusach Ashkenaz? 90% of the student body today is Chasidish.”
Nobody* in Chasan Sofer davens Nusach Ashkenaz this was true at least for the past 30 years. So much so, that I though the vast majority of Jews all davened nusach sefard, since that is all I saw growing up. I knew of a few shuls that davened Ashkenaz but these were by far the exception in BP, and nobody I knew in Chasan Sofer davened in them.
(* Obviously when I say nobody I’m generalizing Its possible there is one kid in some grade but the vast vast majority davened Nusach sefard, and I imagine it has only increased since then)November 17, 2021 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #2029861
We in the Agudah of Staten island with a new Rav Moshe Klein Shlita daven Ashkenaz, so in the green room by Rav Pollak Shlita and the Young Israel.November 17, 2021 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #2029917hujuParticipant
To AviraDe: You made a good point about the importance of fulfilling the mitzvah to daven. Maybe I am wrong. But if several nusachs are acceptable, why does anyone have to stick to only one?
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