April 22, 2012 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #603026avhabenParticipant
Can I change from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Sefard?
What other nusachs are there? And what determines which nusach someone davens with? How about a baal teshuva?
And what about havara? Can I switch havaras? What determines which havara someone uses? A baal teshuva?April 22, 2012 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #869782Sam2Participant
Avhaben: Rav Moshe says that you can’t switch from Ashkenaz to Sefard but that you can do the opposite.April 22, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #869783PatriMember
Sam: Other poskim disagree with Rav Moshe.April 22, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #869784
To answer your questions in order:
1- Why would you want to? Ashkenaz is an ancient mesorah approximately 3 times as old as Nusach Sfard. More, when you take into account the fact that our contemporary “nussach sfard” is a composite and not what any of the earlier rebbes davened. If you have a kesher to some particular chasidus and follow their customs it’s another story.
2- There are Mizrachi, Aram Soba, Shami, Baladi, Sfardi, S&P (aka real sefardi), various girsaos in Nusach Ha’ari l’minehem, to give a partial list.
3- You can switch havaras. Whether or not you should is another story. Your havara is (or should be) determined by the tradition in the rules of dikduk you received from your parents and/or rebbeim.April 22, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #869785
Can I change from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Sefard? Absolutely Not!! There are only 2 authentic Nuscho’os:- Ashkenaz & Sephardi; These 2 authentic Nuscho’os have both been around for well over 1 Millennium.
The other Nusach is so fabricated, that just look how many variations it is infested with, because it is not genuine, and hence there is no consensus about the correct version for Sephard. Somebody decided to invent it approximately 300 years ago, and deviate from Minhag Avoseinu b’Yodeinu.
Havara:- A Patach can never be the same sound as a Komotz, therefore Komotz must be an “O” sound as in the word “hot”.
There are only 2 correct Havaras for a Cholom:- Either an exceedingly deep “O” sound as in “Go”, or an “ou” sound as in “house”. The “oy” sound is absolutely 100% flawed/invalid, because then how does one distinguish between a “Cholom” on its own verses a Cholom followed by a “Yud”?April 22, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #869786
The ARI HaKodesh instituted Nusach Sefard. I would take the AriZal anytime.
147: Your comments about havara (and nusach) are your own boich svaras.April 22, 2012 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #869787
That’s not how a normal Yid approaches a subject. You don’t just call out thousands of Yidden because of some supposed svoro that you came up with, you ask a question and hopefully some of those very learned “oy” pronouncers who undoubtedly know more than you will answer. disgusting.April 22, 2012 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #869788
147: There are a lot more nuschaos then that. And 200 years from now nussach Artscroll will be a legitimate variation too!
Havara: Isn’t that closer to a patach? A better illustration would be Kamatz gadol == the “u” in “thump” kamatz katan == the”O” in Go.
For the Cholom, you missed the third pronunciation. The Yemenite cholom which is halfway between our segol and tzerey which is also the linguistic ancestor of the litvishe Cheylem.
BTW, you haven’t yet answered me about Yom Ha’atzmaut and behab. I know what Rav Tzvi Yehuda did. What is the common practice?April 22, 2012 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #869789
I already answered your question Itchesrulik in the “crisis in crisis” forum which is where you posed this question to me. But I am still awaiting your response to my question about BeHab, in that forum.
For your info. Kozov, this is absolutely not my Sevoroh. I read & studied & learned this from Sepher “Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz” who carefully & methodically researches this involved topic. You can read this Sepher either in Hebrew or English. HoRav Hamburger shlita is probably the single biggest expert in this topic, in this day & age. There is an entire chapter in that Sepher dedicated exclusively to the authentic pronunciation of the Cholom, so that we all correctly fulfill our Chiyuv mideOrraisso of Kerias Shema & Parshas Zochor.April 22, 2012 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #869790ChachamParticipant
REb Shlomo Zalman (halichos shlmo Tefila) REb Moshe The Chazon ISh and the Steipler (Orchos rabeinu) all held sfard can change to ashkenaz but ashkenaz cannot change to sfard.April 22, 2012 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #869791yaff80Participant
Havara – I once saw a R’Moshe, who says that if one says things that are d’oiraisa, ie krias shema, in a havara different than his mesoira, has not been yoitze and must do it again!April 22, 2012 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #869792lesschumrasParticipant
There’s also nusach italiaApril 22, 2012 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #869793
Chacham: Please provide a cite for the Reb SZ,CI, and Steipler (if its true). ThxApril 22, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #869794Sam2Participant
Yaff: The problem with that Shittah is that it’s very hard to say because K’rias Shmah can be said in any language. Saying with a slightly different Havarah shouldn’t be any worse than saying in English. (It could be that R’ Moshe holds like the Ritva quoted in the Bi’ur Halachah in the Siman 65, but that’s also very hard to say because it’s a very minority opinion in the Rishonim.) For things that require Lashon Hakodesh, however (like Birchas Kohanim), changing Havara should be a major problem.April 22, 2012 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #869795
147: Sorry, I forgot what the thread was called so I couldn’t find it. I’ll look there.April 23, 2012 12:30 am at 12:30 am #869796April 23, 2012 12:33 am at 12:33 am #869797lesschumrasParticipant
You prove my point.Mesorah is the rule except when it’s inconvenient.the Ari was a godpl but negated centuries of mesorah and the Daas Torah of his generationApril 23, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #869798ChachamParticipant
czar page 40 in Orchas Rabeinu Chelek 1 and I looked and I can’t remember where RSZA is. It is very likely I am mistaken about it because it is not in halichos shlomo on tefila but i am pretty sure I have seen it somewhere.April 23, 2012 2:05 am at 2:05 am #869799
lesschumras: You gotta be kidding. Where do you come off saying that the Arizal negated Mesorah and Daas Torah?? Aside from chutzpah that is about as inaccurate as can be.April 23, 2012 2:33 am at 2:33 am #869800
So 147 is the only issue with Havara nowadays “oy”? Or is the Sfardic Havara also invalid? I don’t have the Sefer.April 23, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #869801
Lesschumras:- Next time you are in Israel, there is a Shul of Hillel Street [very near Ben Yehudah] which prays your Nusach Italia. They have services each Shabbos. I don’t know know their schedule for Yom ha’Atzmaut services this week.April 23, 2012 2:57 am at 2:57 am #869802
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was of the opinion that you can use either Havarah, just not in the same davening.April 23, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #869803takahmamashParticipant
One can switch from nusach Ashkenaz to nusach Sfard. I did so myself, under the direction of our rav here on our yishuv. (There are no nusach Ashkenaz shules here.) I did not switch my pronunciation, as he told me that most people who switch end up saying the words incorrectly.
Avhaben, why would you ask your question here? Don’t you have a Rav to ask?April 23, 2012 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #869804MDGParticipant
“The ARI HaKodesh instituted Nusach Sefard. I would take the AriZal anytime.”
Where is that written?
AFAIK, he used what was the Mesorah in Egypt and E”Y at the time – Sephardi. He provided incites into the deeper meanings and Kavanot, but he did not write a new Siddur. If I’m wrong, please provide a source.April 23, 2012 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #869805nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I find it ironic, at the least, that you are so insistent on what the Mesorah for “over a millenium” and you are incensed that someone would change and yet you consider Yom Haatzmauat, a holiday started by the secular government of Israel, to be a legitimate yom tov.
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