Oh vs Oy

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  • #953926

    squeak
    Participant

    Nu?

    #953927

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Baruch Atah H-shem El-keinu Melech Ha’olam Hamotzi Lechem Min Ha’aretz (chew, chew, chew, swallow)

    ok squeak- what was it you needed to say

    #953928

    PM
    Member

    oomis: I agree with you that both havaros are acceptable, in fact you are the one accusing Ashkenazi havara of being less authentic. However it is simply not true that Sefardi havara is the pure form of Lashon HaKodesh spoken by the Avos, it was certainly influenced by the local Arabic just as Ashkenazic havara was influenced by German, Hungarian, Russian etc. Also your comparison to English is inaccurate. Ashkenazim did not split off of Sefardim, both diverged from eachother.

    #953929

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    This is so confusing!

    #953930

    anonymisss
    Participant

    mark, welcome back to the cr!

    ~a~

    #953931

    oomis
    Participant

    PM, I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. 🙂

    #953932

    oomis
    Participant

    Mark, don’t be confused. We are just having a lively discussion, as usual…

    Welcome back, though I don’t remember if I have seen your posts prior to this (then again, I don’t remember seeing lots of my own posts, either).

    #953933

    onlyemes
    Member

    I spoke several times to a world renowned professor of the Hebrew language, who is also a phenomenal talmid chacham about this issue. He basically laughed, explaining through numerous examples that language is and always was dynamic. Pronunciation of any language continuously changes over time due to a multitude of factors, and therefore there is no such thing, nor can there be such a thing as a “correct” pronunciation. Everyone’s minhag is legitimate;sfard, syrian,teimani, hungarian, litvish, yekke, you name it. Live and let live, and don’t use it as an exclusionary tool.

    #953934

    oomis
    Participant

    well-said onlyemes

    #953935

    Nobody
    Member

    I suppose the Oy versus Oh pronounciation is similar to any country or area location with accents and pronounciations.

    You have Drawls, Midwest, Southern, Brooklyn, Boro Park (kidding!)and at the same time you have English, Queen’s English, Estuary etc.

    People will always strive to imply their regional accent is the correct one, the original one, the most eloquently ennounciated and so on so I guess the Oy versus Oh is much the same.

    But, in the end does it make us any better of a person? Methinks not. Who really cares? I’ll tell you – only the person who thinks he is better than the next man.

    The awful thing is that many a shidduch is based on the Hebrew accent or pronounciation of the boy/family. Sad.

    #953936

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Up until that last line I liked your post, Nobody. But hold it- shidduchim are not BASED on this little fact- havara just tells you where this person is coming from. Is that so sad/bad?

    #953937

    GoldieLoxx
    Member

    onlyemes, do they also make sure the words are pronounced properly with the correct accent on the correct syllabul? or are they more into being yeshivish??

    #953938

    Jax
    Member

    mark levin: welcome to the cr! we always see you on the homepage! great to have ya join us!

    #953939

    onlyemes
    Member

    Many of the posts here have brought out very valid points.

    Essentially, there is no need for two consonants or vowels if the two sound identical. Hence, letters like sav, samach, sin, must have sounded different from each other at one time. So too with kaf and kuf, het and chaf and the like. Some groups, all of North African or Oriental origin (syrian, egyptian, yemenite)distinguish between these sounds, although these differences are inaudible to the untrained Anglo-Saxon ear. What we are left with is what we were taught as children, and that should be good enough. A little tolerance goes a long way.

    As far as accenting the proper syllable, it seems that at least several hundred years ago, the Hebrew language as davened with or as learned with among ashkenazim, moved into a “mil-el” pronunciation. SHAbbos, TOrah, LUlav, SHOfar are all accented mil-el, but proper grammar would demand mil-ra, as in shaBBOS, luLAV, etc… Consequently, it is extremely common to hear all types of ashkenazic Jews, misnagdish and certainly chassidish, accenting mil’el as opposed to mil-ra when they daven. Is it grammatically “correct”?

    I say, no, it is not, but so what? They know what they mean, God certainly knows what they mean, their intentions are pure, that’s the way they were taught by erliche yidden, so lay off, it is perfectly fine. My only exception would be when the misplaced accent changes the meaning of the word, a famous example coming up in Parshas Balak, “Ki lo NAchash be’yaakov” needs to be read mil-el, as NAchash means “magical incantations”, which is pshat in the posuk. To read it naCHASH would mean “snake”, which is clearly mistaken .

    #953940

    oomis
    Participant

    I so appreciate a grammarian. Great post, Onlyemes.

    #953941

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    RoshYeshivah, sorry for the caps, it bothers me as well but I didn’t write this piece and didn’t feel like re-typing the whole thing.

    Great post, onlyemES!

    #953942

    chaverim
    Member

    The teimini pronounciation, which predates the others and is no more similar to sefardic or shkenazic, is closest to the original. Why would anyone think that the sefardic (Jews from Spain and area) pronouciation is closer to the original than the ashkenazic (Jews from Germany and area) is beyond comprehension.

    There is no clear timeline when the sefardic and ashkenazic Jews started differing from each other. It is unclear where the Jews of Babylonia went mostly (Germany, Spain, …) after the Talmudic period.

    #953943

    BasYisroel2
    Participant

    When I was in school one of my teacher(a rebbe/rabbi) told us a long time ago everyone use to pronounce everything OH and then the Perushim came along and they were vrey makpid on a lot of things like dikduk so then we changed the havarah from oh -> oy

    we wanted to show that we are nothing like the perushim so we now-the men pronounce it as Oy-it is really Oh-if you go to a yekkee shul I belive that they pronounce everything/ lot of words as OH!

    #953944

    oomis
    Participant

    When I was in school one of my teacher(a rebbe/rabbi) told us a long time ago everyone use to pronounce everything OH and then the Perushim came along and they were vrey makpid on a lot of things like dikduk so then we changed the havarah from oh -> oy

    we wanted to show that we are nothing like the perushim so we now-the men pronounce it as Oy-it is really Oh-if you go to a yekkee shul I belive that they pronounce everything/ lot of words as OH!

    The PERUSHIM?????? No. To make the sound of OY in Hebrew, all one needs to do is write something with a cholam (OH) followed by a Yud. In some cases a kawmatz and Yud will accomplsih the same thing, but that mostly applies to ashkenaz pronunciation, and the difference between the two would be OH-ee versus Aw-ee. Is it possible your rebbie said something else, not “Perushim”? The Perushim were the najority of frum Jews, those who followed both the Torah Shebichsav and the Torah sheb’al peh. they did not lead an ascetic life like the Essenes, and did not sit in the dark on Shabbos and eat cold food, like the Karaites.

    I thought Yekkim pronounce a lot of Ohs as Ows. (I am really not knowledgeable about this, it is only a thought in my memory bank).

    #953946

    Nobody
    Member

    Oomis your memory bank serves you well – Yekkes do pronounce the choilom as Ow. Very distinct old Germanic pronounciation it is indeed.

    #953947

    tb
    Participant

    Some parts of Germany they pronounced it as OW and other parts as OH

    #953948

    anonymisss
    Participant

    tb- these two letters -ow- have two different sounds that they can make.

    ~a~

    #953949

    David S.
    Member

    PashutehYid it isn’t a mishnah in Eduyos as far as I know, it is a Gemara in Bechoros 5a 🙂 Sorry if it annoys you, me being so meduyak 🙁

    Thanks, David

    #953950

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    Davis S., it might be a Gemara in Berachos as well but check out this post where I quote the mishna in Ediyus.

    #953951

    yossi z.
    Member

    Lubavitchers, i am told, pronounce it AY

    #953953

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    Boymp.

    #953954

    owch

    #953955

    Oh Shreck!
    Participant

    How does one say ??? ???? in the German dialect?

    #953956

    Chortkov
    Participant

    1)

    I thought Yekkim pronounce a lot of Ohs as Ows. (I am really not knowledgeable about this, it is only a thought in my memory bank).

    What are “Yekkim”? Ewww!

    2) Imagine a Yekke leining ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? – and then imagine a Harry saying it, and then a litvak (A real litvak; ei rather then oi!). Sounds good!!

    3) In Yeshiva, loads of guys call the ???? ????? the “Ketzos” – but when you say the full name, they call it “Ketzois Hachoishen” – nobody ever called it “Ketzos Hachoshen!

    #953957

    twisted
    Participant

    OP, note the eleventh commandment: You shall not mess with other people’s religion. And don’t even think of chastising those who insert a dagesh under the dalet of “echad”.

    #953958

    Ok, in a nutshell, what the heck is this thread about?

    Shopping613 [$]613 The Awarder, President, and founder of SUC (Single Username Certificates) contact me to join.

    Current members: Me ShtickyGuy Aurora7

    #953959

    golfer
    Participant

    Interesting thread. Oomis, I read an old post of yours and was wondering-

    You stated that when the world was divided during Dor Haflaga, Hebrew was one of the 70 languages. I guess you meant Lashon Kodesh. Hebrew as we speak it is an invention of Ehud ben Yehuda, based in part on Lashon Kodesh. Is Lashon Kodesh in fact one of the 70 languages, or is it a separate entity?

    Oomis also stated that someone had to be speaking Lashon Kodesh in order for it to survive. While this is true of our basic world languages like Inuit and Welsh, I’m not sure this is the case with Lashon Kodesh. This is the language of the Torah through which the world was created. Does it have an eternal existence outside of humans speaking it?

    I would be very interested in answers from any esteemed YWC linguists that want to make this clear. Including oomis, if you like!

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