Oh vs Oy

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  • #589770

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    OH or OY

    PROOF # 1

    PROOF # 2

    OBSERVATION !!!!!!

    OBSERVATION !!!!!!

    PROOF # 3

    NOW FOR THE PROOF THAT COMES FROM THE ????, ?????? & ?????? – THE ??”? .

    THE FOLLOWING ARE THE STEPS TO THE PROOF !!!

    . THIS IS TRUE THROUGHOUT ALL OF THE ??”?.

    (By the way the above rule is NOT applied when there is a pause [like a comma or period]

    END OF PROOF # 3

    CONCLUSION !!!

    [sickness]

    HOW CAREUL ONE MUST BE IN PRONUNCIATION – IT MAY LEAD TO ????? & ?????, ?”? . (Like saying ?? ?????? (no powers) instead of ??? ?????? (Master of mighty acts), or in [???? ???] ???? ??? (the nation shot at …) instead of ?????? ??? (the nation feared Hashem). etc., etc.

    Written by Rabbi Y. Kramer – Jerusalem Israel

    #953877

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    ChofetzChaim. Brilliant post. However, two comments:

    1) There is a mishna in Eduyos which says Chayav odom lomar bloshon rabo (I believe.) The rebbe there had a speech impediment and mispronounced certain words. Nevertheless, the talmid was required to pronounce them the same way. (Don’t have in front of me, and too tired to look up.)

    2) I am extremely troubled by the quote from the Yesod vShoresh Haavodah that the holocaust and other tragedies are caused by something as minor as mispronounced words. How would he have known? Doesn’t the RBSH understand our tefilos even if not perfect. One can even daven in another language, altogether. (I am aware that the Tosfos Yom Tov is said to have had a dream that Tach vTat was caused by talking in shul. I am just as troubled, and furthermore, how can we learn from mayseh chalomos to denigrate the holy klal yisroel, when Chazal say Ein cholom blo dvarim bteilim.

    #953878

    Chacham
    Participant

    i saw this shtickel a long time ago but should one switch by all or just shema or should he not switch at all

    #953879

    Jewess
    Member

    Very convincing post.

    I do have a problem with one thing though, and that’s thinking that we’re in Galut because of mistakes in pronounciation. With all due respect to the Rabbi in your last paragraph, do you honestly think that God will only accept a prayer that’s pronounced one way and not another?

    I’d think that it’s Sin’at Chinam and so many other sins that put us in Galut and that’s what’s keeping us in Galut too.

    That said, I say “ah”–Sephardic havarah and I like to believe that that is the correct way.

    #953880

    oomis
    Participant

    I think it is just a teensy bit arrogant for anyone to decide that we are in galus for reasons which have no real legs to them. We are in galus because of very real aveiros that am Yisroel committed a long time ago during Bayis Sheini. Because we continue to commit many of these aveiros, we have not yet merited to see the Binyan Bayis Shlishi. To attribute our long exile of over 1900 years to the mispronunciation of words when those words were not even pronounced that way until around 200 years ago, is just illogical. A lot of rabbonim say a lot of things are the cause of our tzoros. Some of them are right, and some may be trying to illustrate a certain point, but that does not mean that what they say is correct. BTW, the most authentic pronunciation of Hebrew words in the Torah and our tefila, probably is sefardic (I am not sefardic).

    #953881

    Nobody
    Member

    Oomis agree with you that the correct pronounciation os probably Sephardic (I am not Sephardic. I reason I agree with you with is general geographics of the times of Matan Torah….

    With regards to the last para above why we are in Golus, Phew, I think that is a harsh assumption.

    I would like to translate that interpretation as not so much the grammatical pronounciation but the way in which the words are said. Incorrect because they are not said with Kavonoh perhaps? Mispronounced because they are rushed?

    Every Yid must question why we are in Golus and correct each of the ways and reasons he feels we do not have Moshiach. Thus, with each Jew correcting his/her ways we are working towards the end of Golus.

    #953882

    PM
    Member

    The Stiepler in Kraina D’Igrsa compares the relative accuracy of Ashkenazi and Sefardi pronunciation. His conclusion is that it is irrelevant and impossible to conclusively determine which havara is more “correct”, and none are perfect. Therefore he concludes that each person should continue to pronounce Lashon HaKodesh according to his minhag.

    #953883

    Jewess
    Member

    WOOOPS!! I made a misake in my post…Sephardic pronounciation of cholam is “OH” without the W sound at the end–like the Ashkenaz kamatz (almost uh). I mixed up cholam and kamatz…I still think it’s the correct way. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    #953884

    noitallmr
    Participant

    Wow did everyone here go thru that entire post???

    #953885

    squeak
    Participant

    How come there’s no brawl over this? noitallmr, you should lament the bygone CR days in this thread.

    #953886

    oomis
    Participant

    “Wow did everyone here go thru that entire post??? “

    I gave it my best shot – but no.

    “The Stiepler in Kraina D’Igrsa compares the relative accuracy of Ashkenazi and Sefardi pronunciation. His conclusion is that it is irrelevant and impossible to conclusively determine which havara is more “correct”, and none are perfect. Therefore he concludes that each person should continue to pronounce Lashon HaKodesh according to his minhag.”

    Being a European Rov, he would feel that way. There are however, many differences in pronunciation between Ashkenazim and Sefardim. The Kawmatz/Patach, the Tuff/Suff, and the emphasis on a first syllable of a word, rather than the last. TOh-rah, rather than Toh-RAH. Since the sefardi way came first, it is clearly the more correct havara. It is certainly more authentic than the Eastern European pronunciation. For anyone who feels that the original speakers of the Hebrew language did not get the right to determine how they should pronounce it, I respond as a frum Jew, that the Christians do not get to tell the Jews, who are the original followers of the Torah, how to translate the word ALMAH. You always go to the prime source for the correct information about such things. I am fairly sure Moshe Rabbeinu did not give us the “Toyrah,” but I respect your decision to hold by your rabbonim who pronounce it that way.

    As long as it is not a problem halachically, it is not a problem at all.

    #953887

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    There have always been varieties in pronounciation. Read tanach on shibolet/sibolet.

    #953888

    tzippi
    Member

    My niece says, boys say oy and girls say oh.

    #953889

    squeak
    Participant

    based on tzippi’s niece, kimt arois that saying “Oy” is a Mitzvas Assai she’hazman g’romo.

    #953890

    Feif Un
    Participant

    tzippi, my first grade rebbe said that when a boy came in and said his mother told him to say “oh”

    #953891

    oomis
    Participant

    Read tanach on shibolet/sibolet

    Right you are, SJS.

    #953892

    noitallmr
    Participant

    squeak- lol. Your right!

    #953893

    The subject is a bit of a sore spot for me and, I suspect, many others. I can’t count how many times, in yeshiva, I was mocked and imitated for my pronunciation of the cholam as “oh.” Something so simple and so clearly stated in dikduk has become a pivotal point by which a person’s level of frumkeit is assessed.

    The “oy” is a comparatively recent phenomenon, born out of the Eastern European dialects of Yiddish. Anyone with a clear grasp of linguistics (not stressed in many yeshivos) or history (not stressed in many yeshivos) would be able to confirm this. Yet, many of those same bachurim who were so stringent on chalav yisrael that they would refuse to eat at the table with someone eating chalav stam never took the time to examine the rules governing the words they recited every day.

    It takes a special level of shallowness for a ben Torah to treat the entire beis midrash to an Oscar-winning performance of his krias shema–complete with moving the head in four directions, scrunching up the face as though being tortured and doing things with the “ayin” that would send anyone knowledgeable in dikduk diving for cover–and then turn around and mock his fellow for saying “oh” instead of “oy.”

    #953894

    aussieboy
    Participant

    That first post looks REALLY! complicated.

    #953895

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    I challenge Jax (and his ADD) to get through the first post 😉

    #953896

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    One friend once told me it depended on the spoken language of the country. In certain parts of Europe there was no OH sound in the language (Czechoslovakia?) only an OY. So they never learned how to say the OH. In Germany, the German OH is pronounced OW, so the yekkes say Shir HamaalOWS bshuv hashem es shivas tzion…Az yimaleh schOWK pinu ulshOWnenu rina, etc.

    #953897

    PM
    Member

    Oomis: I would be reluctant to accuse the Steipler of not being objective if I were you. He acknowledges the differences, but writes that some aspects of Sefardi havara are also certainly incorrect. A Patach and Kamatz should not sound the same and neither should a Tav and Sav (with and w/o a dot).

    How do you know that the Sefardim came “first” are more “authentic” are the “prime source” and are the “original speakers of the Hebrew language”? Aren’t we all descended from Avraham Avinu?

    #953898

    GoldieLoxx
    Member

    pm said ” A Patach and Kamatz should not sound the same and neither should a Tav and Sav (with and w/o a dot).”

    what about other letters? kuf and kaf? ches and chaf? tes and taf? veis and vav?

    shouldn’t each letter have a unique sound?

    #953899

    PM
    Member

    True. That was the Steipler’s point, we don’t know the “perfect” pronunciation so each group should follow their minhag.

    #953900

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid:

    1) There is a mishna in Eduyos which says Chayav odom lomar bloshon rabo (I believe.) The rebbe there had a speech impediment and mispronounced certain words. Nevertheless, the talmid was required to pronounce them the same way. (Don’t have in front of me, and too tired to look up.)

    ??? ????, ??? ??? ??? ??????, ?????? ?? ?????–???? ???? ???? ????? ???

    Hillel’s Rebbeim were Shemaya and Avtalyon who were geirim and couldn’t pronounce the letter “hay”. Yet, Hillel did pronounce it when quoting them. The Gra asks this on the peirush of the Rambam on the mishna and he answers that the “lashon rabo” is going on the word ??? . It is extra since a hin is obviously a full hin. But, when Shemaya and Avtalyon said it they added in the word ??? in order that the talmidim wouldn’t think they were saying the word ??? which would change the meaning of the halacha. They therefore added the extra word and Hillel also did, but when quoting them, Hillel did pronounce it as it should be pronounced. Source

    2) I am extremely troubled by the quote from the Yesod vShoresh Haavodah that the holocaust and other tragedies are caused by something as minor as mispronounced words. How would he have known? Doesn’t the RBSH understand our tefilos even if not perfect. One can even daven in another language, altogether. (I am aware that the Tosfos Yom Tov is said to have had a dream that Tach vTat was caused by talking in shul. I am just as troubled, and furthermore, how can we learn from mayseh chalomos to denigrate the holy klal yisroel, when Chazal say Ein cholom blo dvarim bteilim.

    I assume that, as was mentioned above, this is probably referring to people who mispronounce because they are rushing or not careful. I would assume that if someone is capable of pronouncing the words correctly and doesn’t, or as in the case here where he purposely mispronounces Hashem’s name every time he says it there would be a t’via against him.

    #953901

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    By the way, here is a Gemara in Megilla that speaks about people who mispronounce words.

    ?? ??,? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??:

    ?? ??,? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?’ ????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? <??????> [??????] ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? (?????? ?) ?????? ??’ ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????: ?”? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????: ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????:

    #953902

    Jax
    Member

    areivim: how’d you know it did not read it!? is that a dare!? 😉

    #953903

    kapusta
    Participant

    chofetzchaim, I have not read most of this thread, and I certainly didnt read the gemarah (wouldn’t do me much good) but I’m almost sure I heard today the letters are not pronounced in the correct way (such as an aleph and an ayin have different sounds) and the yemenites have the “most correct” pronunciation. Wouldn’t that qualify as mispronouncing words?

    *kapusta*

    #953904

    Chacham
    Participant

    agav many things are pronounced wrong

    example reish there is the eemerrrrican rrrrr israeli rwri from the back of the throat and the brisker grgrgrgrgrgrgrghhhhhrgr also from the back of the throat. al pi dikduk the correct way is from the roof of the tip of the mouth similer to a lamed and tes/tav [like some chassidem do it]

    #953905

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I can’t count how many times, in yeshiva, I was mocked and imitated for my pronunciation of the cholam as “oh.”

    David, I’m sorry you went through that. Please understand though that in essence it had nothing to do with the pronounciation. It was more likely kids who wanted to lord something over someone else. I’m not excusing them AT ALL. But you could easily pick anything (kippa type, suit color, tie choices…) and those kids (and even adults) will decide its a “religious” thing and mock others.

    #953906

    oomis
    Participant

    How do you know that the Sefardim came “first” are more “authentic” are the “prime source” and are the “original speakers of the Hebrew language”? Aren’t we all descended from Avraham Avinu?

    Yes PM, we are, and he spoke sefardit, with a gutteral ayin, and chet, his dagesh chazak was audible (as in a Pei or Beit, or Heh). Even if I were to concede (which I absolutely do not) that the sefardim were not the authentic pronouncers of Hebrew (Yemenite are the most authentic), for absolute CERTAINTY, the ashkenazim are not, simply by virtue of coming along later in history. Adam Harishon spoke Hebrew, and it is pretty safe to assume he spoke it pretty much with the same havara as the Eidot Hamizrach.

    #953907

    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis: I would be reluctant to accuse the Steipler of not being objective if I were you

    Are you Flatbush27 in disguise? I didn’t accuse The Steipler Z”L of any such thing. I just stated, “Being a European Rov, he would feel that way.” That does not mean I accused him of not being objective, only that because he was Jew from a specific region, he has a predisposition to a certain opinion. people can be objective and still feel strongly that while they listen to other points of view, their own view is the correct one. One who believes that is entitled to believe what he wishes, but at the end of the day, the facts are the facts, and the facts are thast there were no European Jews in the Midbar saying, “Moishe Rabbeinu, teach us the Toyrah.” The Yeshivish world speaks that way out of respect for the yeshivahs of Europe and their Rabbonim. I don’t speak Yiddish, but I suspect that the pronunciation also somewhat arises from the Yiddish language and its connection to the learning in those Yeshivahs.

    #953908

    PM
    Member

    If someone follows his “predispositions” based on his region of origin instead of the “facts”, he certainly is not being objective or even honest. This is what you are saying the Steipler Gaon did.

    On what do you base your assumption that Avraham Avinu and Adam HaRishon spoke havara Sefaradit. You may be older then I am, but I don’t think you’re ancient enough to have personal knowledge.

    #953909

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Chacham, I was actually taught that for a reish, it’s brought down that it should come from the throat, not from the roof of the mouth.

    #953910

    tb
    Participant

    Pashuteh Yid, incidently the OH is yekkish also, soem parts of germany said OW and other parts OH

    #953911

    RoshYeshivah
    Member

    chafetz chaim – i believe the caps was unnecessary in your opening post.

    #953912

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    1) I just thought of a great screen name for someone: HeckofaYeck.

    2) There is an old joke about a Yekke who used to come home from shul every morning at 6:30. One day he got home at 6:30 and 4 seconds. His wife asked him, why were you so late? He replied, we started to say Mashiv Haruach today.

    Sorry for being off-topic, mods. Couldn’t resist.

    #953913

    feivel
    Participant

    a Yekke married a Chasidic girl…

    the Chasunah started EXACTLY 45 minutes late.

    #953914

    Nobody
    Member

    How did I know where this thread was going to lead???!!!

    1. Superiority of Sephardim versus Ashkenazim and vice versa

    2. Yekker bashing

    You are all so unPC

    #953915

    squeak
    Participant

    PY – let’s fix that joke. First of all, we start these things at night. Second of all, we start Mashiv HaRuach on Yom Tov so it wouldn’t be just 4 seconds difference. Third of all, why didn’t his wife remember from last year?

    The joke is about the a newly wed Yekke who comes home 4 seconds late one December night. The punchline is we started to say V’sain Tal U’mattar tonight. Everything else is excatly how you said it.

    But as usual, Nobody cares.

    #953916

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Sorry, Squeak, I blew it big time.

    #953917

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Squeak: “First of all, we start these things at night…”

    V’sain tal umatar may begin at night, but you can’t daven Musaf at night!

    #953918

    oomis
    Participant

    “You may be older then I am, but I don’t think you’re ancient enough to have personal knowledge. “

    True, though there are some days I feel pretty ancient. The fact is that the culture that existed LONG, LONG before the Ashkenazic one, was Sefardic (and I am Ashkenaz through and through), and spoke Hebrew for Millenia before the Jews of Europe came into existence. To move away from the hot-button of Judaism for the moment, British English is more authentic than Americanized English (“Olde English” being the model for present day British). Would you argue that American is the only way English should be spoken? After all – it IS the way we speak it in this country (With several dialects, some of which are similar to the English accent)! Would it surprise you to know that the first settlers here who spoke English, spoke it with English accents, which slowly over time evolved into our present-day pronunciations?

    It is beyond silly to argue about something like this, as if it is a terrible thing that either side speaks with either havara. Both pronunciations are accepted in Judaism, but it is very clear which side existed first, and the later on European havara evolved from the first, and probably due to its new locale,regional dialects, etc. took on a different pronunciation of the language. Don’t be so defensive about it. I am not chalilah putting Ashkenazis down, I daven in that havara, but speak Hebrew in sefardit. This is not a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    Some people apparently feel threatened by this idea – I cannot imagine why. It is not an undermining of Yiddishkeit in any way, to recognize that certain Yeshivisms, for want of a better word, may not have their roots in pre-Churban Yahadut. As long as something is not contrary to Halacha in any way, there is no stirah. Or is anyone worried that the alternate pronunciation may actually be found to be a halachic problem???? If so, I am sure the rabbonim have long since discussed that concern, and judged it to be inconsequential, much as the Steipler did. I think you can relax.

    #953919

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    squeak- you finally confirmed my suspicion. Thank you

    #953920

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    oomis- great post!

    one correction on a former post of yours- whatever Avram Avinu spoke it was not Hebrew. Maybe Lashon Hakodesh- no?

    #953921

    squeak
    Participant

    areivim, what suspicion? Many people here have suspected me of various things on little evidence.

    #953922

    oomis
    Participant

    It was the Loshon Hakodesh of the Torah I would imagine, and probably also a form of Aramaic dialect spoken in the region. When Hashem divided up the language of the world during the Dor Haflaga which was trying to build the Tower of Babel, Hebrew was still one of those 70 languages. Someone had to be speaking it in order for it to survive. I would think that Avraham Avinu was one of them. Thank you, Areivim.

    #953923

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    squeak if I reveal, it will be disclosing your personal info

    #953924

    squeak
    Participant

    Most likely it will not, but it will give me an idea of which personality you think is real.

    #953925

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    it has nothing to do with your personality (although many times it does indirectly affect a person’s personality). I’m an expert in confusion and evasiveness 😉

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