Okay so I get the purpose here but…

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    Shopping613 🌠

    I get it. Our purpose in this world is Hashem, is to grow, is to change, for men that’s to learn, etc, etc, etc….(more stuff I’ve learned in sem)

    But, what I don’t get is this. If that is so where is there any room for any other growth other than spiritual? Academic? Social? In a specific skill? And yes, in many circles those things are considered useless, worthless, and a waste of time. In the sense that our purpose in this world is to change and emulate God, yes-that would be correct.

    Yet those things are all that matters in the secular world.

    And whether we are right, or they are right- it doesn’t matter. Picking polar opposites in a war based on what should be and could be. In reality we are flawed humans. There is so much more to use than our spiritual side. We aren’t near that level. But we aren’t trapped in it either.

    So although I plan on asking this question this coming week to a Rav I respect, I wanted to open this here:

    Where do we lie? Shouldn’t we make up our minds? It is obvious neither side is right, right? If we have talents and ways of expression that in the bigger picture help us serve Hashem better then we SHOULD use them. But that shouldn’t be the goal, or the purpose.

    If so than why do I either feel like a failure in the frum world or a success in the secular world?

    Lilmod Ulelamaid

    One of the most basic concepts of Judaism is: ??? ????? ???? What this means is that our only purpose in life is to serve Hashem and everything we do is for that purpose.

    That means that if someone feels that as part of his Avodas Hashem, he needs to have a “secular” career and/or obtain a “secular” education or get a job instead of learning full-time (or in the case of a girl, marry someone who is working), etc, all of these things can be done l’sheim Shamayim and be part of his Avodas Hashem.

    You mention that you feel that most people are either into secular pursuits or into Avodas Hashem. It sounds like you haven’t really encountered people who are pursuing secular pursuits as part of their Avodas Hashem.

    I don’t know who the people you know are and why you haven’t encountered this. I am guessing that part of it might stem from the fact that l’maaseh, most people who are truly into Avodas Hashem nowadays are either not interested in or don’t need the secular pursuits. Or even more likely, perhaps most people find that in the world today, pursuing a secular career while being completely focused on Avodas Hashem is practically impossible. Most of the people who talk about “Torah and Worldly Pursuits” are not talking about living a life of Avodas Hashem and serving Hashem in different ways. They are actually talking about living a double life (whether or not they aware of this).

    Rav Hutner, zatsal differentiatied between living a double life and living a broad life (one in which the entire focus is on serving Hashem but this is done through various means such as a “secular” career).

    However, my guess is that in today’s world, it is not realistic for most people, and most people do find that they have to choose.

    Lilmod Ulelamaid

    The thing is though that I don’t see why this has to be a problem for you. You haven’t given any specifics regarding what you are talking about in your own life, so it is hard to give you “aitza”. However, I will give a few examples regarding what you may be talking about.

    One thing you may be referring to is your own need to pursue a “secular” career. If so, I am not sure why you should find this to be a problem nowadays, especially since you live in EY where it seems to me that it has become even more acceptable for Frum girls to pursue various career paths and there are many Frum programs available in many fields. Since the Torah world nowadays encourages Kollel, by extension, it has become more and more acceptable for Frum girls to pursue “secular” careers. Since it is for the purpose of supporting their husbands in Kollel, you have the ??? ????? ???? aspect right there. And of course, you can also make sure to keep up your own learning while you are in college so that you don’t lose sight of your focus and goals.

    If you are referring to your husband’s working vs. learning, I think that nowadays it is generally felt that the only way that one can get a strong base in Limud Torah and Avodas Hashem is by starting out in Kollel for at least the first few years. After that, if someone needs to go to work to support his family, that is a very big Mitzvah, and if he has that foundation in Torah from his Kollel years, he is more likely to be able to go to work while maintaining his focus on Torah.

    I don’t know if any of this is helpful to you as I’m not exactly sure what you are asking. If you clarify a bit more, it might help.

    Shopping613 🌠

    I’m not talking about college or learning. I’m talking about other things, like honing in your artistic abilities, going to classes to write better, or someone spending time trying to improve their social skills. I feel like in the secular world such things are celebrated, and in the charedi world it’s considered independant of your avodas hashem and a waste of time.

    Lilmod Ulelamaid

    Sorry, but that’s ridiculous! I have never heard such a thing. All the Chareidi people I know think these things are very important and part of one’s Avodas Hashem.

    If that is what you have been hearing, I suspect that you either have the wrong impression or else the people you know are the Mitchareid type (people who grew up modern and became Chareidi as opposed to people who were always Chareidi). Often, people who are mitchareid develop Baal teshuva syndrome which is a tendency to go to extremes that are not reflective of normal mainstream Chareidi society.

    In any case, it sounds like you know the wrong people. I think you need to find a way to meet other types of Chareidim than the ones you know now. The daughters of one of my most Chareidi friends (they go to the Snif) take all sorts of classes. At least one of them is extremely artistic and took art classes.

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