December 7, 2010 12:16 am at 12:16 am #716504yes-its-meParticipant
the indisputable and ultimate solution is an international database for frum boys and girls of all ages. A good well designed database that can be used online or as hard copy could well serve us. the logistics could be easily worded out by some pioneer … whos offering??!!December 7, 2010 12:37 am at 12:37 am #716505
I could write a program using AI that matches up singles in the database.December 7, 2010 1:23 am at 1:23 am #716506
I think Singles (younger & older) should be able to pick who they want to marry! I mean you are old enought to GET married, why not be able to pick that person?
I’m not sure why we throw ourselves at the mercy of Shadchanim, who gave these people Ruach Hakodesh? Does it say anywhere that you have to go through a certain amount of boosha by begging and pleading before you can get a date kal vachomer married?
Maybe this system worked in Europe where people where told at 13 who they were going to marry at 16. Now that we have options, opinions, veto power (not to mention the shrinking world) this system simply cant and doesnt work!December 7, 2010 1:48 am at 1:48 am #716507WIYMember
Todays permissive society needs the Shidduch system more than ever before. Any other way just doesnt work as well. Not to say that there arent flaws in the system. But then again, you may not be in touch with the right Shadchanim.December 7, 2010 1:57 am at 1:57 am #716508
Thank G-d for the Shidduch System, which works beautifully 95% of the time, otherwise there would be pritzus galore.December 7, 2010 2:31 am at 2:31 am #716509SJSinNYCMember
My best friend’s brother went OTD. He told me it was really hard to be an older single and still frum because Jewish life is really built upon family life. We need to be more inclusive of singles as they are and not just as people to set up with anyone that comes along.December 7, 2010 3:17 am at 3:17 am #716510
I’d love a hit of what ever it is youre smoking.December 7, 2010 4:10 am at 4:10 am #716511
Sacrilege: Its called “Torah”.
What Kool-Aid are you drinking?December 7, 2010 4:12 am at 4:12 am #716512
SJS: Perhaps he trouble staying moral while single, and he was lashing out.December 7, 2010 4:29 am at 4:29 am #716513
Its called reality, it may be too strong for you.December 7, 2010 4:43 am at 4:43 am #716514
Sacrilege: Torah is stronger than your perception of “reality”. (It might make good entertainment, though, on a “reality show”!)December 7, 2010 5:40 am at 5:40 am #716515
Unfortunately, the Oilem is to blame, bigtime, for any transgressions that come to pass in this area. Hashem sees everything.
Aside from the Yechidim who sincerely put blood sweat and tears into finding Shidduchim for singles who arent close friends or relatives, we are sorely lacking Shadchanim who really care about others and are willing to invest the needed time and effort, with the exception of those seeking the uniquely big Shadchanus fees.
Im not saying Shadchanim shouldnt get paid, they certainly should, but the vast majority of Shadchanim today work much harder for their rich clientele than the middle class, if they’re willing to work for them at all. Most Shadchanim with familiar names arent reachable by the middle class. Unless of course, a middle class single is an exceptionally good match for an upper class single (stunning middle class girl, or brilliant middle class boy).
There are very few Shadchanim who do as much as return phone calls from people whose last names they dont recognize.
If Im wrong, the genuinely idealistic and fair minded Shadchanim are in hiding,IF they do exist, and the public is not aware of them, which is the fault of the Klal for not publicizing them, because it is the Achrayus of the Klal (meaning me and you) to care and do what is neccessary to get results for all singles.
I hate being negative, but these are my recent observations.December 7, 2010 6:34 am at 6:34 am #716516WIYMember
If theres something you think you can do about the situation, by all means step up and do something.December 7, 2010 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #716517SJSinNYCMember
myfriend, he doesn’t blame going OTD specifically on being an older single. But Orthodox society (not Torah) isolates older singles. Its not blaming Torah, but society needs to be more inclusive.
You seem to be afraid of criticism of the Orthodox world. We (as in Orthodox Jews) aren’t perfect and have plenty of ways to improve ourselves. Introspection is important.December 7, 2010 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #716518
WIY, to begin with, despite the fact that all the Heimishe newspapers have covered the subject of Shidduchim ad nauseum, none have offered a Shadchan list with phone numbers.
I think the primary problem is that (with few exceptions) Reb “John Doe” doesnt have any Shadchanim to call who will return his call. Networking at the supermarket and talking to everyone about your child doesnt bring enough results. The Klal sorely needs regularly available idealistic Shadchanim, who are eager and happy to work for the whole Klal, whose numbers they can easily find.
The Klal is over-endowed with volunteers willing to walk the corridors of hospitals many hours of the day, to help strangers (when they’re already sick), but a lack of volunteer Shadchanim to help prevent people from getting sick. Just a thought. Perhaps Gedolim have to be encouraged to attend to this issue.December 7, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #716519gavra_at_workParticipant
Have your Kehila hire a real shadchan.
Then he/she will concentrate on your singles.December 7, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #716520
gaw, in today’s economy, Kehilas hiring Shadchanim is not feasible. Also, in the case of small Kehilas, its never feasible. Aint gonna work.
The same breed of people who tirelessly walk the corridors of hospitals to help strangers, are the kind we need as Shadchanim.
Unfortunately, as we talk and read all the Shidduch related articles in the papers, Singles are getting older, waiting for phone calls that never come.December 7, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #716522
Ofcourse, you just gave me a great idea.December 7, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #716523
BPT, B”H! May you be zoche to implement it and have the Zchus to bring forth many Batei Neemanim b’Yisroel!
I made my first Shidduch as a newlywed, many years ago, with singles, ten years older than myself, who almost gave up on getting married. There is almost no greater pleasure.December 7, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #716524not IMember
Ther is actually such a phenomena about a kehilla shadchan.
LA has a shadchan who supposedly works on their girls. The same goes for Baltimore.
If you need some numbers of Shadchanim just lok tehm up in teh phone book: Lewenstein (lkwd- Does mostly learning shidduchim, I assume)
Rabbi Brull(I think he is the one that works on baltimore girls)
Rabbi WeingartenDecember 7, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #716525not IMember
I am a “newly wed” and had a shidduch go out already. (Didn’t work but still…) We are always working on Shidduchim. We try..
Besides we decided if we make a shidduch we will go to EY! Always that incentive!December 7, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #716526
not I, of the names you mentioned, I know of one who always returns phone calls, another who never does, and another who repeatedly puts you on hold and never comes back (thats enough to make you never want to call any Shadchan again). Interestingly, the same Shadchanim do the same with all the Singles/parents Ive spoken to. Ive compared notes. The less famous Shadchanim (with exceptions) generally are more sensitive. The remaining Shadchanim specialize in certain types of Singles, or certain geographical areas.December 8, 2010 5:03 am at 5:03 am #716527Brooklyn YentaParticipant
sacrilege: back to the beginning here, if you think this is a gross exaggeration, it’s obvious that you’re not familiar with the goings-on in the divorce scene. good. it’s better that way. stay innocent.December 8, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #716528
Clearly you dont know my family who is very much involved with gittin/divorce. Dont assume.December 8, 2010 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #716529TheGoqParticipant
Being an older single, one of the things that grates me greatly is the assumption that you cant have a meaningful complete life unless you are married this is complete folly, i enjoy my life to the fullest would it be more complete if i had a spouse? probably but there is much life to be lived still, we shouldnt be made to feel incomplete, so please dont tsk tsk at my life dont say ahh nebach please save your pity for someone who truly needs it.December 8, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #716530
I’d never mention a name, but I cant help but wonder the numbers of how many others have fallen victim to the seemingly sweet “Can I put you on hold, please” and never gets back on the line (to first time callers) – Shadchan. That is such a turn-off to parents and singles. I’ve heard that Shadchan does it again and again to different first time callers, to abruptly cut short the conversation, after summing up the caller. This wastes peoples’ time and saps their confidence and energy.December 8, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #716531
Ouch, Ofcourse. That is really hurtful.
Definitely time to try my suggestion of getting face time with a shul’s rebbetzin.
Many shuls have as few as 30 women on a standard shabbos, so a bright, presentable girl should have no problem getting to be a “real face” instead of raw data.
Several shuls come to mind, but those are based on my personal preferences and my location. Pick ones that work for you and let your personality do the talking!December 8, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #716532
BPT, we’re BPers as well, and BP is 98.9% Chassidish. If you’re not Chassidish, you’re out of luck with BP Rebbitzins. Anyhow, girl in question does Bais Ezra all Shabbos for pay, while being f/t student for graduate degree. Thanks for the idea though.December 8, 2010 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #716533
“If you’re not Chassidish, you’re out of luck with BP Rebbitzins”
# 1, why limit yourself to BP shuls? Kensington is under 30 minutes away, and there are numerous shuls I can think of there. (two right off the bat are Foster and Seton and the one on OP and Bay Parkway. Don’t know all there is to know about them, but they seem warm enough from the few times I’ve been there)
# 2, What about R’ Brody on 51st street? Or Emumas Yisroel on 16th? Ok, maybe the rebbetzin of EY is not the right person, but there has to be 10-20 women there on a shabbos that will take an interest in a newly arrived girl, if she shows up pretty consistantly. I mean, they have a brigade of girls that cut up cake for keddashim.. you’re gonna tell me they don’t have a team of well meaning and ready to help 40+ year olds to mentor single girls? Ok, you won’t walk in on day 1 and get bombarded with offers; but give it a few weeks and you’d be pleasantly surprised at how effective an idea this is.
And hedge your bets. Pick 2 shuls and alternate so you get maximum exposure without being all over the place.
And while working is a great thing, she needs to take off some time for herself. If the traditional track hasn’t worked, its time for some fresh air.December 8, 2010 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #716534
BPT, I appreciate your ideas, but any girl showing up alone at a Shul where she has no friends or relatives, is in my eyes, a little strange. Not wanting to paint all of them with a broad stroke, but the girls I personally know who do that, come from very problematic homes.December 9, 2010 12:15 am at 12:15 am #716535
Off the top let me state clearly, I am not a shadchan.
Having been heavily involved in the issue for the 3 years and counting, and having been in frequent contact with tens of shadchanim as well as parents and singles in the parsha, allow me to point out the inaccuracies of your comments as well as make suggestions as to what actually works and what doesn’t work.
1.Shadchanim don’t return phone call.
The shadchanim you refer to receive 100 new phone calls a day. They are empoyed by no one and have no secretary. Do you think it’s feasable to return all the phone calls? Do you thinks it’s even smart. They call the people that they have tachlis to tell. Obviously someones getting calls, they are setting people up and people are getting married.
Here a little experiment. Ask those shadchanim who you are lambasting for a list of the shidduchim they have made in the last year or two. I can gurantee that the overwhelming majority of the girls whose shidduchim they have made would perfectly fit your description of regular nice middle class girls.
BY FAR the overwhelming numbers of shadchanim are kind and genuinely trying to help whomever the can and are fair minded.
4. Impossible to get a Shadchan list
5. Shadchanim today work much harder for their rich clientele than the middle class, see what I wrote to question number 2.December 9, 2010 12:31 am at 12:31 am #716536
As for your point that we need more shadchanim.
many many (perhaps even most) young couples certainly try and dabble when they first get married. Yet within 6 months, 99.5% quit the “proffesion”.
Ever wonder WHY?
Here’s the secret. NO one likes being a failure and/or being treated like one.
The most prolific shadchanim set up 300 plus different dates (lets say 350) a year and max 25 get engaged.
that’s 325 failures…. Right???
that’s how our community treats a shidduch that falls apart after 2/3/4 dates.
as long as that’s the situation, rest assured you won’t have people running to devote the hundreds of hours it takes to pursue the thankless, abusive “chesed” of redding shidducim.
Emotionally healthy sane people distance themselves from feelings of failure, and the typical shadchan is treated that way day in day out.
The day that changes, is the day you will fulfill your dream of having enough shadchanim out there that each and every girl will have whom to turn to.
Go For It!December 9, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #716537
AZ, I’ve married off children, I have friends who all married off children and I’ve set up hundreds of dates (couples went out) in the last few years. I still stick to my view of MOST Shadchanim, based on my comparing notes with hundreds of singles! And sadly, by and large, the more to the right the Shadchanim are, the greater the focus on making big name Shidduchim.December 9, 2010 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #716538
1. how would you or the other singles know who shadchanim have set up.
2. of course (no pun intended) the big names get attention…. but to brush with the broad strokes you are using is simply incorrect and unfair.
3. try getting a list from the shadchanim “on the right” of the shidduchimn they have made in the last 2 years. I think you’ll be quite fascinated.
4. here’s a little secret. shadachanim focuse on the girls whom they can get dates for, afterall they are in the business of making making shidducim. if a girl and her family are easy to deal with they will look out for her regardless of the family standing.
5. if you’ve set up hundreds of couples in the last few years, KOL HAKAVOOD. you would certainly know the work that goes in to getting it there. (i find it hard to beleive that you’ve set up hundreds of dates and have made one shidduch. something doesn’t sound right.)December 9, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #716539squeakParticipant
What a difference. I’ve got to say, for my part, the new and improved AZ is much more welcome here.December 9, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #716540eclipseMember
I was Boruch Hashem zoche to make a number of shidduchim.They all have beautiful families,ka”h.One of the reasons I had to stop was because DOING THE JOB RIGHT is a full-time job,without exaggeration.Iy”h,when my own kids are all grown up and married,I look forward to resuming.
It takes time to be in touch with all the people involved in a timely fashion.Shadchonim who leave everybody hanging are a source of great frustration for daters and their families.Sometimes doctors and rabbonim need to be consulted.Sometimes Dor Yeshorim has delays.It gets involved.
Also,if I thought an oft-rejected guy/girl would be devastated by yet another “no”,I tried to have another RELEVANT(not random)date lined up,so I could say,”You know,the girl/boy didn’t see this going long-term,but I actually have another wonderful date for you.In fact,they already agreed…”
A SHADCHAN WHO CARES ABOUT EVERYONE’S FEELINGS CAN HAVE THE PHONE GLUED TO HER EAR ALL DAY.
Therefore,try to take it easy in your harsh judgments of shadchonim out there,because most of them are probably trying their best.December 9, 2010 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #716541
AZ: (Im using caps to distinguish my answer from your questions/statements)
1. how would you or the other singles know who shadchanim have set up.(VERY EASILY WHEN SHIDDUCHIM MATERIALIZE OR THE SHADCHANIM OR SINGLES SPEAK OF IT FIRST-HAND)
2. of course (no pun intended) the big names get attention…. but to brush with the broad strokes you are using is simply incorrect and unfair.(THATS YOUR OPINION. TO BE HONEST, I HAVE TO SAY THAT I LIKE WORKING WITH WELL KNOWN FOLK TOO, BUT I THINK FOR EVERYONE)
3. try getting a list from the shadchanim “on the right” of the shidduchimn they have made in the last 2 years. I think you’ll be quite fascinated. (IF I COULD OFFER NAMES HERE ID PROVE MY POINT. WHILE THANK G-D ONLY ONE SHADCHAN REPEATEDLY PUTS FIRST TIME CALLERS ON HOLD AND NEVER RETURNS, THE CONDESCENDING TONES ARE SHARED BY MANY AFTER ASKING THE SUMMER HOME QUESTIONS, ETC.)
4. here’s a little secret. shadachanim focuse on the girls whom they can get dates for, afterall they are in the business of making making shidducim. if a girl and her family are easy to deal with they will look out for her regardless of the family standing. (THERE I AGREE WITH YOU SOMEWHAT, I TOO HATE COMPLAINERS AND WHINERS,OR PEOPLE WHO WANT THE SHADCHAN TO BE THERAPIST, BUT YOU NEVER GET TO COMPLAIN OR WHINE OR LET IT ALL HANG OUT IF YOU QUICKLY GET PUT ON HOLD OR HUNG UP ON)
5. if you’ve set up hundreds of couples in the last few years, KOL HAKAVOOD. you would certainly know the work that goes in to getting it there. (i find it hard to beleive that you’ve set up hundreds of dates and have made one shidduch. something doesn’t sound right.) (SHOW ME WHERE I SAID I ONLY MADE ONE SHIDDUCH??????? YOU MIGHT HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD WHERE I SAID I MADE MY F I R S T SHIDDUCH AS A NEWLYWED)
AZ, I still admire you, though, bec of your efforts with the age issue.December 9, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #716542
Strange for a woman to show up to a new shul? Ok, maybe for a 19 year old, but for someone who is 22-24, this should not be such a hurdle.
Still, my Mrs (who is way more than 24) will not go to a shuir without a friend, even though they are there to listen and not to talk. I guess its a woman thing. Either way, days one thru 10, you might be viewed with suspicion, but after a few weeks, the open minded people will see that they are dealing with someone who is stable and personable. And no, you will not convince each and every person. But those people are not the ones you are concerned about. Focus on the ones who do take an interest in you (or her, if someone else is reading this) and let Hashem work His magic.
Besides, from what I’m seeing here, the traditional shadchan route is very crowded, very competitive and very fustrating. And seemingly, very hard to get noticed in the tumult.
Def time for a new way of tackling this issue.December 9, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #716543
i will respond to your points by the numbers
1. we must travel in very different circles. the tens of shachanim i speak do must definitely deal with plenty of “regular” folk.
3. there is certainly a burnout/frustration on the part of many shachanim. Unfortunately it can carry over to their interaction with the hordes of people they try to help. That is a direct result of the constant abuse/harrasment the endure. As someone who has set up hundreds of shidduchim you well know what’s its like to field calls non stop ALL hours the day.
4. Shadchanim owe nothing to anyone, they should certainly try their best and middos always comes first but it has reached a point of simply unbearbale for anyone who is even a part time shadchan. They have no family time, no down time, can enjoy a family simcha, etc…..
5. I apologize! Kol Hakavood
As for the solution……..
it’s quite simpleDecember 9, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #716544
The traditional shadchan route will no longer work. There are simply far to many people who need to get married and not nearly enough insane people who are ready to take on the thankless job of being a shadchan.
It’s high time shadchanim (and anyone else who dabbles) is rewarded for their efforts even when a couple doesn’t get engaged.
A Shadchan can NOT get anyone engaged. Due to the NASI’s projects access to many shadchanim they were offered on more than one occasion 50k to get a specific girl engaged.
“Give it to G-D, HE’S the only one who can get your daughter engaged, unfortunately (for you) HE doesn’t care about your money”
All a shadchan can do it get girls/boys attention, quality dates. a few quality dates and most are engaged.
When shadchanim (and regular people) are treated as successes for getting a couple to date #2/date #4, then far more people would be involved.
So long as you are (treated as) a failure unless they get engaged,,, well then we will continue to only have a handful of borderline insane people who willingly subject themselves to failure, abuse and harassment….
When shadcanim are truly appreciated and compensated (it’s actually very very cost effective as proven by the Montreal Project) for their tireless efforts, time commitment, and total dedication, we will have a army of people ready to get involved.December 9, 2010 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #716545
AZ, imho, that was brilliant!!!
Also, I think every Shul should have an assigned Shidduch person, either male or female, who is voted in by the entire Shul, who doesnt let up until every single is married. Good fantasy, right?December 9, 2010 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #716546
Every shul should institute for their girls
girls 21-24 date #2-$100/date #4-$400
girls 25-20 date#2-$100/ date #4-$400
they should have a volunteer who serves as a liasion for anyone needing info on the girls and/or their familiers.
it’s cost effective/produces results and most certainly NOT a fantasy!December 9, 2010 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #716547Trying my bestMember
girls 17-20 date #2-$50/date #4 $100December 9, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #716548
you being cyinical or serious….December 9, 2010 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #716549popa_bar_abbaParticipant
AZ: You don’t want to help 20 year olds get married? That is mean.December 9, 2010 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #716550
PBA: I want to help ALL girls get married!
I assumed TMB line about 17 year olds was cynical.December 9, 2010 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #716551yobwejParticipant
ok. I’m finally going to write.
I was a 30 something, BT male, normal looking, ashkenaz, college educated but not “a big money guy”, yeshivish hashkafos, no personal baggage but some mild family baggage bachur.
I dated over 60 girls while I was single. I dated EVERY type of girl–FFB’s, BT’s, older, younger, sephardi, ashkenaz, girls that were completely upper west side to yeshivishe girls who needed daddy’s permission to date me and EVERYTHING in between, sometimes i traveled to them, sometimes they travelled to me, spoiled girls, girls from poor families, doctor’s, and every type of ______ therapist girls, single dates, 7th or 8th date, , in-town girls, out of towners, heavy girls, slim girls, and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. I never had a shortage of potential dates
I always had people interested and doing their best to set me up–I was rarely not in the parsha. I thank every day, the hard working, well-intentioned people that did there best to keep me in mind–and many followed through.
I am married to a wonderful girl from a wonderful family. I now have my own wonderful family growing by the day. Baruch Hashem.
I do want to ask–is there really a huge shidduch “crisis”. Over the years, I would hear or see or find out that many of these girls eventually got engaged. I am aware that well over half of these girls are married today. unfortunately there were a few girls that, despite all of their great maa’los, will probably always remain single.
I can also say that a majority of the other “singles” from my “days on the market” are all married today–both the guys i was buddies with or saw around town and the “single girls from the area” that were naturally seen and mentioned through the circles that we operated in.
So I always want to say–what shidduch crisis?December 9, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #716552Trying my bestMember
AZ, why assume cynicism where none exists? Girls 17 through 20 need to get married too.
(I assume your group of “girls 25-20” was a typo meaning 25-30)
girls 31-40 date#2-$200/ date #4-$600
girls 41+ date#2-$400/ date #4-$800December 9, 2010 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #716553netazarParticipant
Who’s to be paying for this? Am I to assume the shul membership as a whole?December 9, 2010 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #716554
yobwej,”what shidduch crisis”?
Speak to any girls’ high school principal/seminary and they will un/happily give you the statistics of single:married girls 25 and up from each school. Some schools/some years, I believe I’ve heard, it nears 20%. That’s tragic. Thats very large numbers we’re talking about.
Please correct me if Im wrong.
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