November 26, 2018 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1630405oyyoyyoyParticipant
I understand having discussions and even arguments about certain topics. I enjoy getting into a debate every once in a while too. But when it comes to a huge machlokes, among jews, that isn’t just a run-of-the-mill fight but a fight that rips apart brotherhood and trashes giant people, about an issue that has nothing to do with me nor will i gain anything from the outcome- I will try to go in the ways of On Ben Peles.
Join me in a group which is no group, a side which takes no sides.November 26, 2018 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1630966ZionGateParticipant
So what do you want to talk about? Hobbies, travel ?
How about quotes which can be debated , or post your own.
I thought about it because I saw this the other day :
” Sometimes you’ll never know the value of a moment till it becomes a memory.”…….. Dr. SeussNovember 26, 2018 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1630952
Newsflash- He wasn’t some major tzaddik. The rest of us will choose the side that’s in essence the only side, as the Novominsker Rebbe said in the name of R’ Shmuel. I guess you’re just a bigger tzaddik than him, too.November 26, 2018 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1630983JosephParticipant
Toi: The Novominsker and Rav Shmuel are disagreeing with Rav Aharon, Rav Malkiel and Rav Wachtfogel. Just as you say the other side isn’t some major tzadik and your side is a bigger tzadik, the other side says the same in reverse. And both sides each have a huge portion of the Torah world agreeing with them.November 26, 2018 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1631007
So, in the spirit of on BEN peles lets get drunk and sleep through all conventions and asifas. Anyone recommend a good scotch?November 26, 2018 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1631004ZionGateParticipant
Guys, what you’re doing is the exact opposite of what the OP seems to want here…. Really, besides a minority group, who cares?? Why you ruining someone’s thread??November 27, 2018 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1631118
Ah, see Joe, you are an eitznik, I told you. Will you admit yet that lehovin is a eitz propaganda paper? It’s a minute amount of yidden in IL, (1 seat on Jlem city council vs. 6 to degel and 3 to gimmel), and has just begun in the US because of these esteemed RYs. Don’t make it like it’s a “huge portion” of the torah world. That’s vaiter propaganda. I suppose a “huge portion” of the medical world holds that vaccines are dangerous?November 27, 2018 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1631166Reb EliezerParticipant
On Ben Peles was saved by his wife were she uncovered her hair so they all avoided entering the house.November 27, 2018 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1631461
shows how warped someones thinking can get when they are hyper focused on a single topic.November 27, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1631577samthenylicParticipant
Hmmm? So what??? Just shows that you should NOT be involved in machlokes, esp. those that don’t affect you one way or another…November 27, 2018 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1631771oyyoyyoyParticipant
“He wasn’t some major tzaddik.”
I didn’t know he wasn’t a tzaddik, but the logic works.
The rest of us will choose the side that’s in essence the only side
I know you’re intelligent ive seen it before. This comment…
Do you guys believe your urge to fight about this is coming from a core of authentic caring about this injustice?
Maybe it has something to do with whats been tearing us apart for ages. I’m not recommending kumbaya you know, i don’t know why this sounds so out there.November 27, 2018 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1631892
@oyyoyyoy- I appreciate the compliment. Yes, I know people from the US don’t have a firm grasp on this issue. I’d say 95% of american yungerleit in israel don’t understand it either. You’d need to hear an hour long shiur on the subject to have a clue what’s really going on. It is not a one issue machlokes. It’s about revisionist history, with the eitzniks rewriting the past to justify their present. You can see how small this group really is with the number of seats they won on the city council, and you can see how deranged their current leadership is when they told the ostensibly more yeshivish/kanoishe oilam to vote for Berkovitch (a mechalel shabbos who desired the same for Yerushalayim ir hakodesh) in the last election. Some prominent eitz rabbonim (and I mean very very vocal, well known american born rabbonim who lead american kehillos) actually backed away from eitz when their leadership made that statement. I know that from over the pond it seems like a fight about reporting to the draft office, but it runs much deeper, and is more insidious than you think. Have you ever, ever heard R chaim come out about politics prior to this issue flaring up? Have you ever heard the chashuvste RYs in EY being so vocal, so forward and outspoken on any other issue? There’s a reason why their response to eitz is to remind them of what really happened in klal yisroel over the last twenty odd years- it’s because eitz’s whole worldview is based on utter falsehood.
The ‘only side’ comment was in reference to the mashal- in Moshe vs. Korach, there weren’t two valid sides.November 27, 2018 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1631926JosephParticipant
Toi: Here are two points I think virtually everyone will agree about:
1. Neither side is giving up and accepting the other sides demands
2. Neither side can force the other side to stop whatever they’ve been doing until now, since the disagreement started
Given that, what do you propose be done? Keep up the fight indefinitely?November 27, 2018 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1631922goygetterParticipant
They might be a miut in EY but HERE their position is legitimized by THREE prominent RY which all of them respectively have thousands of followers so which I would say is a HUGE portion of the gedolim here.November 28, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1632168Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
I don’t know anything about the issue. I’m one of those Americans who actually stays out of it like you guys seem to want. In fact, the only reason I ever really hear about it is through statements of people saying that we shouldn’t talk about it in America (for people who say we shouldn’t talk about it, they sure love to talk about it).
I have one kasheh for Toi and apushatayid to clarify, and don’t assume I’m trying to be argumentative (even having said that, I have a feeling you will assume so).
One of the statements I see in the Agudah convention highlights article is about how most of the frum olam has accepted Rav Kanievsky’s leadership, and that the real problem isn’t about the draft, it’s about people not accepting him as the undisputed gadol hador.
Toi, when Lubavitchers say that their rebbe is for klal yisroel, you criticize them (as do I). But, here, you seem to ally with someone who wants to enforce singular leadership on everyone. Is it just a question of WHO for you?
Apushatayid, you said on a gadol hador thread, repeatedly, that there is no such thing as one singular gadol hador. Why are you so adamantly agreeing with someone who is saying exactly that now?
Please don’t assume I’m just playing stupid, guys. I really don’t know anything about the issue. It just always raises a little concern and curiosity about an issue when you see on side censoring the other, calling them things like “baalei machlokes,” and de-legitimizing their opinions without arguing specifics.November 28, 2018 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1632184🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Neville – (answering out of turn) I don’t think you are insincere or playing. I do think that your comparison is faulty though. And I’m kind of surprised you don’t.November 28, 2018 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1632226Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
I assume you refer to the Lubavitch comparison. Yes, there are other issues at hand when Lubavitchers make that statement, but I do believe it’s enough of a problem in itself to try to enforce your leadership on others (even if it weren’t based in Meshichism and kefira).
Regarding the issue at hand, from my limited understanding, Eidah Chareidis, Satmar, and obviously Peleg do not accept R. Kanievsky’s shittah on the matter. If the Ger Rebbe and others chose to disagree also, it seems like we would end up with virtually the whole frum world on one side of the issue, and us in a corner by ourselves calling everyone else “baalei machlokes” who refuse to accept our leadership. Doesn’t that sound just a little bit eerily reminiscent of Chabad rhetoric?November 28, 2018 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1632266
“Apushatayid, you said on a gadol hador thread, repeatedly, that there is no such thing as one singular gadol hador. Why are you so adamantly agreeing with someone who is saying exactly that now?”
Actually, I said we should all take the On Ben Peles route and get drunk and sleep through the entire issue.
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