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  • #1210505

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    LU: ?

    IITFT: You asked.

    “Where were you and OO when civilizations of the past accused us for being ‘narrow’,’rigid’ and “destroying peoples’ happiness” due to our refusal to bend for the prior mentioned?Should we have bent? What about all those poor individuals’ “suffering” [ read Shakespeare if/when examples are needed]?”

    Obviously we were together then. Hmmmm… that is a good point. That if I and anyone who happens to be affiliated with OO today looked back at how we survived generations ago, then I and we would see that our firmness in our beliefs, our Torah as it is, is our strength and instead of trying to change it today we can honor it. Because Torah is who we really are.

    #1210506

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB: “our Torah as it is, is our strength and instead of trying to change it today we can honor it. Because Torah is who we really are.”

    + 1 billion!!!!

    #1210507

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Listened to *What’s More Important to God? Effort? Doing All the Mitzvot? Being a Nice Guy?* by Rabbi Zev Leff

    Which recapped and elaborated about info in this thread about doing Hashem’s Will instead of making Hashem fit what we want.

    #1210508

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – nice! That’s an idea – Rav Leff would be a good Rav/teacher for you. You should check out his website and other shiurim.

    #1210509

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    !!!! Had no clue that he had a website! Found it ~ Thanks LU 🙂

    #1210510

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB -lol, I thought that was where you heard his shiur, so I wasn’t sure if there was a point to telling you about his website. Glad I did in the end!

    #1210511

    mw13
    Participant

    LB:

    doing Hashem’s Will instead of making Hashem fit what we want.

    +1

    In order to truly develop a relationship with Hashem, we need to honestly figure out what it is that He truly wants us to do, based on what He has told us and based on the teachings of those who have gotten truly close to Him.

    Projecting our own personal pre-conceived notions/beliefs/feelings (which are often based more on the society around us than on any objective criteria) is not only intellectually dishonest, but also perverts the nature of our relationship – we would then be trying to mold God into our image, instead of trying to mold ourselves into God’s image.

    As you correctly observed, staying true to Hashem and His Torah is what has sustained us through the ages and through all of our travails. All of the various movements that have attempted to edit Judaism to fit their own ideas instead of Hashem’s everlasting and unchanging will have fallen and faded into history. Because it is our connection with Hashem, on Hashem’s terms, that keeps us going.

    #1210512

    Avi K
    Participant

    Time, by calling Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach’s sheeta, which is the consensus sheeta, aberrant you have put yourself beyond the pale, anecdotal statements notwithstanding.

    #1210514

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    One more thing to add to LB’s comments. There is a concept that Hashem “looked into the Torah and created the world”. If there is a particular issur against a relationship in the Torah, then the world/nature does not contradict that since the Torah came first. To question how can the Torah or Rabbis say something is forbidden when it goes against human nature and tendencies, and Hashem could not possible have meant that, is looking at things from the wrong perspective. Hashem made a mitzva/assur, and created the world accordingly, which means that human nature can and is supposed to try to achieve that ideal, even if it is challenging for a particular individual.

    I can appreciate LB, from reading your posts here and on other threads, that it is far easier for a ba’al teshuva to stop eating non-kosher, keep shabbos, etc. than to change a mindset and feel comfortable with Torah-true hashkafa. Kol Hakavod on your efforts to understand.

    #1210516

    “Time, by calling Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach’s sheeta, which is the consensus sheeta, aberrant you have put yourself beyond the pale, anecdotal statements notwithstanding.”

    Consensus ? Of Blogdaism?Really?

    ” created the world accordingly, which means that human nature can and is supposed to try to achieve that ideal, even if it is challenging for a particular individual.”

    The present rage of Epigenetics proves anyone change if they wish it enough.

    The public,media, etc., need to and are attempting to shut down the whole debate now about whether anyone could change precisely because they’re fully aware how it will become public knowledge in a few years that it’s false in toto and anyone COULD change, of course!

    They’re goal is that by then ,it will already be too late and the debate will have indeed been shut

    #1210517

    Avi K
    Participant

    Time , that is what I have received from my rabbanim. In fact, Rav Shlomo Zalman has very strong rebuttals of the Chazon Ish’s opinion as Well as Rav Schmelkes’ opinion that it ismolid zerem. Among other rebuttals he says that closing a circuit is like closing a door. Moreover, it is not permanent so it cannot be a Torah prohibition. Regarding the issue at hand (in case you have forgotten, riding in an elevator that was activated by a gentile) see Rabbi Chaim Jachter’s on-line series of articles “The Use of Elevators on Shabbat” and “Non-Shabbos elevator on Shabbat” by Rabbi David Sperling (also on-line).

    #1210518

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    “The present rage of Epigenetics proves anyone change if they wish it enough.”

    I agree that a person can change or overcome their natural tendencies, but not because of epigenetics. Just because epigenetic properties are not encoded in the gene itself does not mean they can be consciously controlled. Don’t know about you, but no matter how hard I try, I cannot get my histones to change their methylation status.

    #1210519

    So how is it that Rabbi Dovid Feinstein who doesn’t follow that electricity=boneh, is adamantly against using elevators on Shabbos?

    Rabbi Chaim Jachter, Rabbi David Sperling

    are the consensus? 🙂

    #1210520

    Avi K
    Participant

    Time, I do not know that Rav Dovid Feinstein holds. His father (IM, OC 2:80) held that it is permissible if the gentile is not instructed to operate the elevator. See also “Shabbos elevators: Rav Meir Triebitz’s Teshuva” where he even allows asking a gentile to push the button (although he does not wish to advertise this heter). In any case, you have no right to disparage people who are lenient as they have ample halachic grounds to do so.

    #1210521

    K-cup
    Participant

    It’s time for the truth, just about everyone pasken like R Shlomo Zalman ztl, and is machmir unless it’s tzarich gamur. Does Rav Dovid hold you can never use a shabbos elevator? ( And a shabbos elevator is really the same as a regular elevator in the case you are discussing due to not pushing buttons).

    #1210522

    Ferd
    Participant
    #1210523

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Does anyone in OO put Rabbi Avi Weiss in check? Does he need to consult with or be accountable with anyone in his court before doing something very controversial?

    Is he free to do whatever he feels/believes is right from now on because he is leading a movement?

    #1210524

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB- that is one of the problems with the movement -that he is not following Daas Torah and simply deciding things on his own. That is one of the ways that you can determine if a Rav is reliable or not.

    #1210526

    Avi K
    Participant

    Lightbrite, the question is whether he keeps anyone in check. When I knew him thirty years ago I had the distinct impression that he was personally frummer than he let on. In fact, he once commented that many people who started with him would no longer daven in HIR – and did not seem displeased. Today he is 72 and sort-of retired (he said that he would like to retire the word “retire”) and has turned over his shul to a younger man.

    #1210527

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Avi K: Are you saying that the people that used to go to HIR are now too frum for it and now go to a traditional O shul?

    #1210528

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LB- that is one of the problems with the movement -that he is not following Daas Torah and simply deciding things on his own. That is one of the ways that you can determine if a Rav is reliable or not.

    I do not belive that either Rav Schecter or Rav Lichtenstein ZTL belived in Daas Torah either, and they are certainly gedolim (Or was in Rav Lictensteins case)

    OO is not an organization, its just a loose movement of a few shuls somewhat related to Hebrew Institute of Riverdale and Yeshiva Chovevei Torah.

    #1210529

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you, Daas Torah is the term.

    I thought even MO Gedolim go off of Daas Torah.

    So much to learn.

    #1210530

    mw13
    Participant

    Another relevant op-ed on OO:

    Open O’ers and the Siddur

    Goes to show what OO is really up to, and what their vision of so-called Judaism looks like – prioritizing passing fads from the society around us (celebrating MLK Jr Day, anti-Trumpism, etc) over actually observing Halacha (having a mixed-gender Christian group perform in a shul, fasting on Friday, changing the teffilos) and even the cardinal principles of Judaism (the coming of Moshiach, the rebuilding of the Bais HaMikdosh, and even the authenticity and authorship of the Torah itself).

    This is not authentic Judaism.

    #1210531

    mw13
    Participant

    zdad:

    I do not belive that either Rav Schecter or Rav Lichtenstein ZTL belived in Daas Torah either, and they are certainly gedolim (Or was in Rav Lictensteins case)

    Just out of curiosity, do you believe that there is any reason to listen to the opinions of R’ Schachter or R’ Lictenstein over the opinion of say, any random poster here?

    And if so, why?

    LB:

    I thought even MO Gedolim go off of Daas Torah.

    So much to learn.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/do-mo-believe-in-non-strawman-daas-torah

    #1210532

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rabbi Hershel Schachter said following Daas Torah is required. See the thread about marrying whoever the Rov tells you that you have to.

    #1210533

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Rav Schecter thread about marrying whomever your Rav says is missing alot of key information. We have no proof that he said that about random people. It was likely a reason that he said 2 specific people should marry and with a reason.

    #1210534

    Avi K
    Participant
    #1210535

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – I agree that the other thread is probably missing information. However, from what was given over (by more than one poster), it does sound pretty clear that he believes in Daas Torah.

    “We have no proof that he said that about random people. It was likely a reason that he said 2 specific people should marry and with a reason”

    I’m not sure what you mean by this? Are you saying that the Gedolim don’t tell everyone who to marry and only do so in specific cases? I don’t think anyone implied otherwise, and either way, it still means that he believes in Daas Torah, since he is saying that any time a Gadol does tell someone whom to marry, he has to listen.

    Aside from the other thread, I have heard that he believes in Daas Torah. I once heard that someone asked him why he doesn’t wear techeilis and he responded, “Rav Elyashiv doesn’t wear techeilis, and I should wear techeilis?”

    #1210537

    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K, if you don’t believe in Daas Torah at all, why do you care what R’ Lichtenstein has to say?

    #1210538

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It depends on what your defination of Daas Torah is.

    Are you asking the Rav if Quinoa is kosher for Passover or are you asking the Rav if you should buy that house on 46th St in Borough Park

    #1210539

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – Basically the first but even more. We are not just talking about personal halachic issues – We are talking about halachic issues that involve changes in communal religious practice that the Gedolim say are wrong.

    #1210540

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I was answering MW’s direct question about if someone should listen to Rav Schter over a random CR poster , not about OO in general.

    #1210541

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    You’ve had this discussion already numerous times and it was clearly e planned that buying a house on 46th can very likely entail a shailah for a rov. There are many variables that are shailos that should be asked if one is concerned with following Halacha. There are also items that may be Hashkafic.

    And quinoa on pesach may not be a “da’as Torah” shailah as much as a straight halachic shailah.

    #1210542

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD -“I was answering MW’s direct question about if someone should listen to Rav Schter over a random CR poster , not about OO in general.”

    ZD: I was responding to the statement of yours below. I had said that the problem with OO is that they don’t follow Daas Torah. You claimed that neither does Rav Shachter. I am trying to say that my impression is that R’ Shachter does hold of Daas Torah. I guess your second to last post was on a tangental point raised by MW. But either way, my point still remains. When it comes to these types of issues, I am fairly certain that R’ Shachter would hold of Daas Torah, and that is what makes him different from OO, and that is what the conversation had been about (at some point).

    LU: “LB- that is one of the problems with the movement -that he is not following Daas Torah and simply deciding things on his own. That is one of the ways that you can determine if a Rav is reliable or not.”

    ZD: “I do not belive that either Rav Schecter or Rav Lichtenstein ZTL belived in Daas Torah either, and they are certainly gedolim (Or was in Rav Lictensteins case)”

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